Starter aerobatic airplane?

[Theboys]

I am thinking about looking for a aerobatic approved airplane. I was thinking of something to just have fun with. Don't want a Pitts or christen-eagle or a totally specialized one like that. Was thinking of something fairly modern. At this point I don't know much about them. I don't need it to travel but would like two seats to take wife along (or her to take me along). Not planning on any trips with it as I have airplanes for that. Any good suggestions? A super decathlon was mentioned by a friend who happens to own a fly baby. :wink2:

 

[wabower]

Are you currently acro-trained or just thinking about it? My advice is to see if you really like it before spending any money. I had unlimited access to a super D after completing the advanced course but found I didn't really like acro all that much and only flew it a few hours before handing in my keys. YMMV.

I am thinking about looking for a aerobatic approved airplane. I was thinking of something to just have fun with. Don't want a Pitts or christen-eagle or a totally specialized one like that. Was thinking of something fairly modern. At this point I don't know much about them. I don't need it to travel but would like two seats to take wife along (or her to take me along). Not planning on any trips with it as I have airplanes for that. Any good suggestions? A super decathlon was mentioned by a friend who happens to own a fly baby. :wink2:

 

[whifferdill]

Don't want a Pitts or christen-eagle or a totally specialized one like that.

You say that now. BTW, when Curtis Pitts designed the first Pitts in the 40's, he wasn't looking for a "specialized" aerobatic airplane, he just felt a sport biplane could be designed to handle better than the dumptruck-like Wacos and Stearmans that were around then. Don't get me wrong, I love Wacos and Stearmans. So don't think of a Pitts or Eagle as "totally specialized". Think of them as simply one aircraft on the wide-ranging aerobatic performance spectrum. There are many aircraft types on this spectrum...from a Clipped Cub to an MX-S. The Pitts/Eagle is about half-way in between. The higher you get on this spectrum, the less sense it makes to own the airplane for anything besides pure aerobatics. And the Super Decathlon is "specifically" built for aerobatics, given the load limits and inverted fuel/oil systems. It's simply a little lower on the performance continuum. It's also a very easy-handling, classic taildragger, comfortable, with good visibility and a combination of speed, ruggedness and short-field capability. So it has appeal to recreational aerobatic pilots who want an airplane for more than just aerobatics. It's also a great first aerobatic airplane, and very good for learning the basics. But don't let anyone tell you a Pitts/Eagle is inappropriate as a first acro plane. It all comes down to good training and good judgment.

Regarding aerobatic airplanes, you say you "don't know much about them". The real question is how much do you REALLY like aerobatics. Before getting started, some folks like the idea of it, but don't care for the reality of it. Others get hooked for life. How much aerobatic experience do you have? If you have little-to-none, you're putting the cart before the horse a bit regarding the question of which airplane to buy. You need enough training and experience to know IF you will really have a lasting interest, and what kind of aerobatics you want to pursue. Some only ever care to occasionally flop around with lazy positive G loops and rolls. Others become G junkies...positive and negative G. That will influence your purchase decision.

And BTW, don't let your first experience with negative G turn you off it. Lots of people say "I don't like hanging from the straps" after doing it once or twice. Most people feel that way at first. But like any sort of G, you develop a tolerance. Get used to it, and flying along inverted at -1G becomes as normal and comfortable as upright level flight. But you can't go wrong starting with a Super D. There are plenty of other airplanes out there, with lots of room to upgrade performance if you like.

Eric

 

[Theboys]

I don't have really any acro training right now. I was thinking it would make me fly better and be fun. There aren't really any planes and cfI,s that I know available to give it a whirl. I'm sure there are some. I just don't know them. I'm going to be at sun n fun so maybe I can pursue that there. Was just thinking I would enjoy it. Don't want to pull the wings off of one of my cessna planes. Seems like something on this line would be a good workshop at sun n fun or Oshkosh. I have been getting about average of hour a day flying this year and would like to try. It makes sense to try it somewhere and see both how much I enjoy it and how much of an airplane I need. I just sold a great little airplane that I bought from a friend sight unseen without flying and knew on the way home that I didn't really care to fly it. Home was a 1000 miles so I did give it a chance.

 

[ProspectingCFI]

Git one of them "airbatic" ones. (Citabria)

 

[whifferdill]

Git one of them "airbatic" ones. (Citabria)

Nothing kills aerobatic enthusiasm like a Citabria.

 

[docmirror]

The number of aircraft is rather limited. Of course, you have the Citabrias, at 115 or 150HP which is barely capable of much, just your loop, roll, spin, and snaps. A little inverted. It has a positive camber wing, so that limits it's effectiveness. Tandem seating so wives don't like it much. Next is the Decathlon, 150 or 180HP, same basic structure but the wing is symmetrical and has better internal bracing for -4 G maneuvers. Tandem seating.

Cessna only offers the C-150 Aerobat. It's anemic, it's marginal for non-acro flight and even more marginal for acro stuff.

My choice and they are rather hard to find is the Beech Sundowner. Not many came off the line with the acro stuff but for 95% of your flying it's fine, if rather slow. Also limited to loop, roll, spin and snaps, will do a bit of inverted but is not rated over -2 I think. They are getting old as well, so best to have it carefully inspected. The last is the Beech F-33C or E. It's a straight tail Bonanza, with some mods for acro flight. This is the real deal, with prices to match. I don't think they do inverted much, but for everything else, they have plenty of power, and strong enough to fly just about any way you want.

The other acro ships are pretty much experimental, and there are plenty of those avail that I won't list them. The last Super Decathlon was made in the mid 80s, so not very new. Although I've heard they are making them again. I haven't checked the prices.

 

[whifferdill]

The last Super Decathlon was made in the mid 80s, so not very new. Although I've heard they are making them again. I haven't checked the prices.

Yes, they started making them again 22 years ago.

 

[MultiMediaWill]

What about the extra 300? How come no one mentioned that aerobatic plane???

 

[Geico266]

Nothing kills aerobatic enthusiasm like a Citabria.

Now that was funny.

 

[Ken Ibold]

What about the extra 300? How come no one mentioned that aerobatic plane???

You can pick up a nice Citabria for 60 or 70K. You can pick up a nice S-2B for somewhere in the low 100Ks. The Extra is a pipe dream at twice that.

So really the question becomes, like so many other times, how much are you willing to spend?

 

[Ken Ibold]

Now that was funny.

Was funny! However, in all seriousness I got introduced in a 160 hp 2001 Citabria I bought new. After a few years, I traded that on a 2 seat Pitts. I sold that at my wife's begging. She worried herself sick every time I went to the airport to fly it. "that airplane" became "that damned airplane". Some battles are worth fighting, some are not.

 

[yakdriver]

A 7KCAB Citabria is a great aerobatic trainer. It takes a lot of work and finesse to do nice maneuvers but that's why it is such a good trainer. If you can do nice point and slow rolls in a Citabria you will be able to do them in anything. On top of that is has a comfortable cockpit and is not a bad cross country cruiser. I got my tailwheel and areobatic training in a Great Lakes. The problem Whiff has is once you fly a Pitts or Extra doing aerobatics in anything else is like driving a truck. Don

 

[JasonCT]

Cirrus No seriously I wouldn't advocate that.

I know Diana does a lot of acro in her Citabria and would be good person to chat with if you're thinking going that route.

Enjoy, and keep us posted on your progress. It sure looks like fun!

 

[whifferdill]

A 7KCAB Citabria is a great aerobatic trainer. It takes a lot of work and finesse to do nice maneuvers but that's why it is such a good trainer. If you can do nice point and slow rolls in a Citabria you will be able to do them in anything.

Totally agree, but it takes just as much finesse to do a perfect slow roll in a Pitts as it does a Citabria. The difference between rolling the Citabria and the Pitts is that to the casual observer, the Pitts will make you appear better than you are. Take someone who is just learning to do a straight-and-level roll. Put them in a Citabria and you will see a clown show. Put them in a Pitts and the casual observer will see much less of a clown show. But the expert observer will recognize the same level of inability. The Citabria simply makes errors more visible, which is why it's a great trainer.

But if you can roll a Pitts perfectly, you could quickly and easily learn to roll a Citabria perfectly, and as you mention, vice versa. The only real difference between the two is roll rate, stick force, and the degree of rudder and elevator deflection needed. In any airplane, a perfect roll takes very precisely measured and timed inputs. The elevator and rudder inputs will be a smaller in the Pitts, but they still must be applied in precisely the right amounts, timed properly. The consequence of more sensitive controls is susceptibility to overcontrolling.

 

[Jeanie]

I have a super decathlon and would recommend it as a beginner trainer acro plane... And I have seen some folks do very well at the sportsman level in a super D.

But, get some time first then think of what you want. If you have some mileage for a commercial flight or just want to buy a ticket and have time available check out the various acro schools across the states and go for a weekend course. I can recommend Debbie Rihn Harvey's place in Port Aransas. I can also tell you where to not go... For that info I can send you a PM.

Rich Stowell at McCall Idaho is great but he's pricey. I'd invite you to Texas to fly with me but I don't have commercial insurance on Rosy and am not quite ready to instruct in her. I'm pretty good though at giving fun flights

 

[Theboys]

Jeanie, I think you have the right idea. Either the course or just spend a day or so with someone who could give me some info and or ride. I'm going to sun n fun next week and see if there is anyone there I can visit with about it. I have seen a few super decathlon,s available and that seems like from general consensus would probably be a good choice. Maybe check out a few schools and hang around for few hours.