Sport Pilot Airplane to PPL-G

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mgpilot

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Matt
Hey guys --

I am wanting to pursue a glider license but not be limited to the Vne associated with the sport pilot glider privileges. Thus, I am wanting to pursue a PPL-G.

My main question is -- what document do I use to solo? My old student pilot certificate that I used for my sport pilot license? Or do I use my actual sport pilot license?

If I do use my old student pilot cert -- when I went to the FSDO to get it, the guy put "Sport Pilot" in the limitations area (along with corrective lenses requirement). Given that I'd now be going for a Private Pilot license for gliders, would I need to schedule another trip to the FSDO to get a different cert?

Any help here would be appreciated!

Matt
 
Second trip to the FSDO. No "sport pilot' limitation on this one.
 
You don't have to go to the FSDO to get a new Student Pilot certificate -- any DPE can issue a Student Pilot certificate, and many do it free as a "come-on" in hopes of getting your business later for your practical test. But either way, you'll have to use IACRA to apply.
 
Ron Levy said:
You don't have to go to the FSDO to get a new Student Pilot certificate -- any DPE can issue a Student Pilot certificate, and many do it free as a "come-on" in hopes of getting your business later for your practical test. But either way, you'll have to use IACRA to apply.
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You don't have to use IACRA to apply for a Student Pilot Certificate, it can be done on the 8710 by either the DPE or ASI.
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
You don't have to use IACRA to apply for a Student Pilot Certificate, it can be done on the 8710 by either the DPE or ASI.
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Maybe where you are, but not around here. Perhaps our FSDO is wrong, but the DPE's say they insist, and I haven't elevated the issue.
 
Ron Levy said:
Maybe where you are, but not around here. Perhaps our FSDO is wrong, but the DPE's say they insist, and I haven't elevated the issue.
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Either one (FSDO or DPE) cannot refuse to accept an 8710, but to keep from having any grief go with whatever they want.

I will do it whichever way the customer wants. :thumbsup:
 
I have not seen this transition before from Sport Pilot Airplane to Private Pilot Glider.

Great question on the Student Certificate question for the transition.
Ron, is there a ready reference for this?

This leads to the question about not holding more than one certificate at a time. Holding a sport pilot cert, plus a glider student cert?

Guess I need to go do some research.
 
Ron Levy said:
You don't have to go to the FSDO to get a new Student Pilot certificate -- any DPE can issue a Student Pilot certificate, and many do it free as a "come-on" in hopes of getting your business later for your practical test. But either way, you'll have to use IACRA to apply.
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Our glider DPE does not use IACRA, no Internet access at the airport.
 
BillTIZ said:
Our glider DPE does not use IACRA, no Internet access at the airport.
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As the DPE who issued the Student Pilot cert to my Sport Pilot trainee told me, there is a problem getting the "C-number" that goes on the Student Pilot certificate if you don't go through IACRA but that this problem does not exist for the issuance of a Temporary Airman Certificate from a practical test.
 
BillTIZ said:
I have not seen this transition before from Sport Pilot Airplane to Private Pilot Glider.

Great question on the Student Certificate question for the transition.
Ron, is there a ready reference for this?
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There's this in FAA Order 8900.1:

5-345 STUDENT PILOT CERTIFICATES¾ GLIDER AND LIGHTER-THAN-AIR. For these two aircraft, an applicant only needs to be 14 years old and does not need to have a medical certificate. Applicants for glider or lighter-than-air are issued FAA Form 8710-2. If the holder of a student pilot certificate for gliders or lighter-than-air aircraft desires a pilot certificate or rating in a powered aircraft, he/she must meet the appropriate medical requirements of 14 CFR part 67.
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Is that the answer you were seeking?

This leads to the question about not holding more than one certificate at a time. Holding a sport pilot cert, plus a glider student cert?
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I see your point, but I see nothing in the regs prohibiting that situation, and nothing in 61.83 saying the holder of a Sport Pilot certificate is not eligible for a Student Pilot certificate.
 
Ron Levy said:
As the DPE who issued the Student Pilot cert to my Sport Pilot trainee told me, there is a problem getting the "C-number" that goes on the Student Pilot certificate if you don't go through IACRA but that this problem does not exist for the issuance of a Temporary Airman Certificate from a practical test.
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I have (as most ASI's and DPE's) a booklet of the Student Pilot Certificates. Type up the info on the form and issue, send a duplicate copy with the 8710 to OKC.

I can see the reluctance of a DPE to issue non IACRA due to the issue of having to fill out the blank certificate when IACRA does it automatically.

IACRA does have it's faults. It's good for run of the mill certification but get into anything outside of that (MilComp, Type Rating thru MilComp) and it's a PITA.
 
Why would a student certificate have a "sport pilot" limitation, anyway?

What if I wanted to solo a an airplane, a glider, a helicopter, and a balloon on my 16th birthday all at once?
 
nosehair said:
Why would a student certificate have a "sport pilot" limitation, anyway?

What if I wanted to solo a an airplane, a glider, a helicopter, and a balloon on my 16th birthday all at once?
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The Student Certificate will have a Sport Pilot limitation because Sport Pilot does not require a medical.

If you want to solo the above mentioned aircraft then you would be required to have at least a third class medical which may be combined as the medical/student pilot certificate.

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=AA61B189D28BF6F38525734F0076665A
 
Related question. What is required for a PP without a medical to get a glider certificate?
 
ejensen said:
Related question. What is required for a PP without a medical to get a glider certificate?
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just a student pilot certificate and i don't remember seeing one with a "glider only" limitation. but maybe i didn't look closely enough.
 
I don't see anything in 8900.1 about putting any "glider/LTA only" limitation on a Student Pilot certificate. In fact, I don't see anything about putting on a "sport pilot only" limitation, either. The Sport Pilot only limitation is implicit because the person doesn't have a medical certificate, and the person's logbook endorsements will be written for Light Sport Aircraft only. If the person then gets a Third Class Medical, I see no requirement to get a new Student Pilot certificate in order to fly non-LSA's, just new endorsements.
 
Where are we getting the idea that a Sport Pilot needs a Student certificate anyway?

Admittedly I haven't closely researched the FAR's on this but logically it doesn't make sense.
If he trains in a Light Sport Eligible glider he certianly doesn't need one, that I am aware of. I and if he has glider privledges on his Light Sport Certificate (which is only a log book endorsement) then it doesn't make sense that he would have to go backward and get a Student pilot certificate to train for a Private pilot certificate.

I could be wrong, it not would be the 1st time the FAR's were not logical.
Brian

How about recreational to PPL?
 
my first inclination would be that just like any other add on rating, 61.31(d)(2) would be the governing rule for solo flight. You are already a certificated pilot, there is no need to once again get a student pilot certificate.
 
nosehair said:
Why would a student certificate have a "sport pilot" limitation, anyway?
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Good question. The guy who had issued the cert did not seem to have done it before. This was my second student pilot cert not attached to a medical (I had a medical as well for a while that I just let expire). The first non-medical student pilot certificate did not have the sport pilot only limit on it.

Sadly it took me 3 of these things before I finally finished, but alas...
 
tonycondon said:
my first inclination would be that just like any other add on rating, 61.31(d)(2) would be the governing rule for solo flight. You are already a certificated pilot, there is no need to once again get a student pilot certificate.
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My question here is that I am actually going to be getting a different license, not just a new rating. I am a certificated sport pilot, but I am going to private pilot glider due to the Vne restriction on sport gliders.

Matt
 
mgpilot said:
My question here is that I am actually going to be getting a different license, not just a new rating. I am a certificated sport pilot, but I am going to private pilot glider due to the Vne restriction on sport gliders.

Matt
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My take on it is that you are not going for a different certificate you are upgrading the certificate you already have. i.e. upon completing the requirements they will not give you a new certificate but will take your current Sport Pilot Certificate and replace it with a Private Pilot Certificate.

The way I understand it is that certificates build on each other. If you have a Sport Pilot Certificate it will give you Student pilot Privileges as well as Sport Pilot privilages.

Once you have Private certificate then you have Student pilot, Sport Pilot, Recreational Pilot and Private pilot privledges.

Our course meeting the Category, Class and Type requirements are a different story. But there is no category (or shouldn't be) for Student or even Sport pilot certificates.

Please if anyone can show this is incorrect please do so.

Note: I have in inquiry pending to confirm that Sport pilot certificates don't designate a Category. mgpilot you can confirm this if you like, just look at your sport pilot certificate. (confirmed I just had a freind look at his sport pilot certificate and it says SPORT PILOT only with no category designation)

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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I suspect Brian may be correct, and no new Student Pilot certificate is needed before solo in non-LSA, only the 61.31(d)(2) endorsement (and of course, "training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown") and a valid medical certificate (if applicable -- which it isn't for Gliders). Gonna have to run that past the FSDO or maybe AFS-800 to find out for sure, because it's not clear from the regs.
 
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a valid medical certificate is not required to solo a glider.
 
Brian -- On the back on my license it has Ratings: Sport Pilot and Limitiations: Sport Endorsements: Airplane Single Engine Land and Holder does not meet ICAO requirements.

So Brian / Ron -- it sounds like I don't have to go back to the FSDO or anything like that -- just get an endorsement to solo the glider (even if it's not one that qualifies per light sport rules). Correct?

Thanks!
Matt
 
mgpilot said:
Brian -- On the back on my license it has Ratings: Sport Pilot and Limitiations: Sport Endorsements: Airplane Single Engine Land and Holder does not meet ICAO requirements.

So Brian / Ron -- it sounds like I don't have to go back to the FSDO or anything like that -- just get an endorsement to solo the glider (even if it's not one that qualifies per light sport rules). Correct?

Thanks!
Matt
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I would suggest placing a call to your local FSDO and asking the question.
 
mgpilot said:
Brian -- On the back on my license it has Ratings: Sport Pilot and Limitiations: Sport Endorsements: Airplane Single Engine Land and Holder does not meet ICAO requirements.

So Brian / Ron -- it sounds like I don't have to go back to the FSDO or anything like that -- just get an endorsement to solo the glider (even if it's not one that qualifies per light sport rules). Correct?

Thanks!
Matt
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Interesting, I guess I should have made sure I asked my friend to check the back of his certificate. However i suspect the terminolgy "endorsement" simply means that is what it was initially issued for, since I know to add another categery such as sport pilot glider you only need the approprate training and CFI endorsements, i.e. no new certifciate.

But as I understand it to Solo a glider (non-light sport) all you need are the training and endorsements from your CFIG, even if it isn't a light Sport.

If I were doing the endorsements I would probably check when my DPE or FSDO just to make sure I am correct. However your CFIG may have already been through this scenerio.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
ejensen said:
Related question. What is required for a PP without a medical to get a glider certificate?
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NOTHING. It is an add on to you PP. When you pass your check ride it will be added to your PP certificate.
 
Word from FAA HQ is that a Sport Pilot upgrading to PP solos on a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement, and no Student Pilot is required or authorized in that case. The instructor involved must make sure the pilot involved has received the "applicable" training, using the appropriate knowledge and flight proficiency standards in the regs, e.g., 61.105 and 61.107, before giving that endorsement. I think I'd probably also make sure the "magic 15" from 61.87(d) were covered specifically, just as a "CYA" measure.

One more thing...

The FAA is dealing with a case of a rated pilot who was endorsed for solo in a new cat/class under 61.31(d)(2), and continued flying solo on that endorsement for 10 years after the death of the instructor involved. Of course, Student Pilots must receive a new solo endorsement every 90 days, so we instructors aren't usually concerned with long term effects. However, it appears that absent a limitation in the endorsement, a 61.31(d)(2) solo endorsement has no termination date. All you instructors out there might consider putting some sort of "term limit" on any such endorsement. Also, don't be surprised if some FAA guidance (not regulation) comes out in Advisory Circular form (either a new one or an addition to an existing one) on that point.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Word from FAA HQ is that a Sport Pilot upgrading to PP solos on a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement, and no Student Pilot is required or authorized in that case.

One more thing...

The FAA is dealing with a case of a rated pilot who was endorsed for solo in a new cat/class under 61.31(d)(2), and continued flying solo on that endorsement for 10 years after the death of the instructor involved. Of course, Student Pilots must receive a new solo endorsement every 90 days, so we instructors aren't usually concerned with long term effects. However, it appears that absent a limitation in the endorsement, a 61.31(d)(2) solo endorsement has no termination date. All you instructors out there might consider putting some sort of "term limit" on any such endorsement. Also, don't be surprised if some FAA guidance (not regulation) comes out in Advisory Circular form (either a new one or an addition to an existing one) on that point.
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yep, typical recommendation (and my personal practice) in the soaring world, where we write a lot of 61.31(d)(2) solo endorsements, is a 90 day limit, and sometimes limits to a particular airport and glider.
 
tonycondon said:
yep, typical recommendation (and my personal practice) in the soaring world, where we write a lot of 61.31(d)(2) solo endorsements, is a 90 day limit, and sometimes limits to a particular airport and glider.
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There does not appear to any limit to the limits the endorsing instructor can impose.:wink2:
 
Thanks Ron, that was my understanding as well. I knew a PP adding a rating worked that way, just was not sure about a Sport pilot.

I was aware of the no time limit on the endorsements and have previously added the 90 day limitation to my endorsements.

Thanks Again
Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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Ron -- thanks for the info and research on this! I really do appreciate it.

Matt
 
tonycondon said:
yep, typical recommendation (and my personal practice) in the soaring world, where we write a lot of 61.31(d)(2) solo endorsements, is a 90 day limit, and sometimes limits to a particular airport and glider.
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That's our standard practice and advice also.

And for the insurance coverage, a CFIG has to be at the airport when he launches and knows he is flying and has approved the flight. But that's an insurance thing.
 
Ok, now that I have had a chance to get away from work and look into the books.

As far as I can see, a "rated" Light Sport Pilot, qualified to fly a "light sport airplane" such as a Remos or CLTS, does not require a "student pilot certificate" to take glider training and can proceed direct to Private Pilot - Glider and "Light Sport Pilot - Airplane"

Looking at 61.109(f)(2), the PP candidate for a Glider rating only has to show at least 40hrs in "heavier than air" aircraft and should be able to be endorsed under 61.31(d)(2) and (d)(3) for solo glider operations. The 61.31(d) endorsements do not require a "student pilot certificate".

Yes I will agree that the "PP Glider" candidate will need to complete the PP Glider Written exam for the rating.

Did I miss something?
(Of course this may have been covered in an earlier post that I missed.)
 
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