Spinning Cherokee 140 vs 161

MachFly

MachFly

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MachFly
The original Cherokee was certified for spins, but then Piper changed the wing and the Warrior wasn't certified for spins any more. So I'm trying to figure out why isn't it certified for spins and what's going to happen when you actually spin one?

Aerodynamically the 161 should be able to enter and recover from a spin. However the fact that Piper didn't certify it for spins makes me wonder if that aircraft does something aerodynamically worse or less predictable than the original Cherokee. Does anyone have any experience spinning it (accidently of course)?
 
The Warrior had to meet basic requirements, including spin recovery, in order to be Part 23 certified. It may just be that Piper didn't choose to spend the time and money to go through the entire protocol of testing necessary to get the Warrior FAA approved for intentional spins.
 
The original Cherokee series, with the "Hershey bar" wing, was designed, in large part, by Fred Weick who also designed the non-stallable, non-spinnable Ercoupe. These airplanes were very, very difficult to stall, and would just kind of bobble around when stalls were attempted. I could never get my 1969 D model to stall like my 1958 Cessna 172 would. It would simply sink with the nose abnormally high until I got tired of this and recovered. However, there are tales of Cherokees entering flat spins from which recovery was not possible before running out of altitude. There was a memorable story in FLYING magazine where two instructor pilots got a Cherokee into a flat spin, and promptly climbed up onto the glare shield over the instrument panel to get more weight on the nose. This unusual procedure did the trick, as they both lived to tell the tale. Didn't mention if they needed new boxers on landing though. I guess the moral of this story is "Don't provoke a Cherokee, either Hershey Bar wing or tapered wing, into trying to stall. It may get seriously mad at you and go into the dreaded flat spin". Hope this helps you.
 
glydrflyr said:
The original Cherokee series, with the "Hershey bar" wing, was designed, in large part, by Fred Weick who also designed the non-stallable, non-spinnable Ercoupe. These airplanes were very, very difficult to stall, and would just kind of bobble around when stalls were attempted. I could never get my 1969 D model to stall like my 1958 Cessna 172 would. It would simply sink with the nose abnormally high until I got tired of this and recovered. However, there are tales of Cherokees entering flat spins from which recovery was not possible before running out of altitude. There was a memorable story in FLYING magazine where two instructor pilots got a Cherokee into a flat spin, and promptly climbed up onto the glare shield over the instrument panel to get more weight on the nose. This unusual procedure did the trick, as they both lived to tell the tale. Didn't mention if they needed new boxers on landing though. I guess the moral of this story is "Don't provoke a Cherokee, either Hershey Bar wing or tapered wing, into trying to stall. It may get seriously mad at you and go into the dreaded flat spin". Hope this helps you.
Click to expand...

Mostly true, the 140's are intentional spin certified in the utility category. I have about 200hrs in a 150, it would take an effort to get it to spin.
 
glydrflyr said:
There was a memorable story in FLYING magazine where two instructor pilots got a Cherokee into a flat spin, and promptly climbed up onto the glare shield over the instrument panel to get more weight on the nose. This unusual procedure did the trick, as they both lived to tell the tale.
Click to expand...
I believe this story involved a Tomahawk, not a Cherokee. And the right seater was an FAA DPE who held an aerobatic low level waiver. After the flight, the upper wing skin exhibited substantial wrinkling.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I believe this story involved a Tomahawk, not a Cherokee. And the right seater was an FAA DPE who held an aerobatic low level waiver. After the flight, the upper wing skin exhibited substantial wrinkling.
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I have an easier time believing that than a 140. I teach in a 140 almost every day and it's about as benign in a stall as anything I've flown (which includes 77 models to date.)
 
Not being a test pilot, I would not attempt to spin any aircraft that did not have a very long demonstrated history of straightforward spin recovery....why be the first (and last) person to discover you spun a quirky airplane into the ground?
 
So, I figured since it was rated for spins (utility) it was OK. I have actually been considering grabbing my CFI and taking my Cherokee for a spin (literally). BTW, my CFI is an airshow acrobatic pilot. Is this not such a good idea?
 
John221us said:
So, I figured since it was rated for spins (utility) it was OK. I have actually been considering grabbing my CFI and taking my Cherokee for a spin (literally). BTW, my CFI is an airshow acrobatic pilot. Is this not such a good idea?
Click to expand...

It's a non-event in your Cherokee. You might enjoy it more than you think!
 
Pilawt said:
The Warrior had to meet basic requirements, including spin recovery, in order to be Part 23 certified. It may just be that Piper didn't choose to spend the time and money to go through the entire protocol of testing necessary to get the Warrior FAA approved for intentional spins.
Click to expand...

Defiantly possible. On the other hand I personally would much rather fly an airplane that's certified for spins than the one that is not. Given the fact they they were competing with 172s at the time simply not certifying it doesn't sound like a good financial decision for a company.


bartmc said:
Mostly true, the 140's are intentional spin certified in the utility category. I have about 200hrs in a 150, it would take an effort to get it to spin.
Click to expand...

I can't remember, what kind of wing does the 150 have?


John221us said:
So, I figured since it was rated for spins (utility) it was OK. I have actually been considering grabbing my CFI and taking my Cherokee for a spin (literally). BTW, my CFI is an airshow acrobatic pilot. Is this not such a good idea?
Click to expand...

One thing I'd be concerned about is when your pulling out of the dive (which you will need to enter to get out of a spin) you will need to put 2-3Gs on the airframe. Knowing that the 140 is an old airplane it's possible that it has some fatigue and can't pull as many Gs as it could when it was new.
So spinning it sound like a good idea, but then you'll need to recover and that might be more dangerous than you want.
 
Pilawt said:
The Warrior had to meet basic requirements, including spin recovery, in order to be Part 23 certified. It may just be that Piper didn't choose to spend the time and money to go through the entire protocol of testing necessary to get the Warrior FAA approved for intentional spins.
Click to expand...
Actually, what the Warrior passed was the test for recovery from incipient spins, i.e., at least three seconds or one full turn from entry. The original Cherokees, in order to be approved for intentional spins, had to recover from a fully developed spin of at least six turns per CAR 3-124 (the certification rule in effect when Cherokees were certified). You can see the current verion of those rules in Part 23 under 14 CFR 23.221.
 
bartmc said:
Mostly true, the 140's are intentional spin certified in the utility category. I have about 200hrs in a 150, it would take an effort to get it to spin.
Click to expand...
No foolin'. It took three tries on my initial CFI ride in 1973 to hold that 140 Cherokee in a spin to the right for three full turns -- if I let the rudder off the right stop or yoke off the aft stop even a fraction of an inch, it popped out. Left was much easier since the regular left-rotating tendencies were in my favor.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I believe this story involved a Tomahawk, not a Cherokee. And the right seater was an FAA DPE who held an aerobatic low level waiver. After the flight, the upper wing skin exhibited substantial wrinkling.
Click to expand...
It was a Tomahawk, and this issue was studied and documented in detail by aviation physicist Dr. John Lowery. For more on that, just google his name and Tomahawk -- lots to read. Never been any issues with spin recoveries in Cherokees, and in fact, as I said above, the biggest problem is not recovering from a spin, but getting them to spin in the first place.
 
John221us said:
So, I figured since it was rated for spins (utility) it was OK. I have actually been considering grabbing my CFI and taking my Cherokee for a spin (literally). BTW, my CFI is an airshow acrobatic pilot. Is this not such a good idea?
Click to expand...
Just being in the Utility category does not mean intentional spins are approved. The manufacturer of a Utility airplane has the option of doing the full Aerobatic category spin series and obtaining approval for intentional spins, or just doing the Normal category incipient spin recovery package and having intentional spins prohibited. See 14 CFR 23.221 (linked above) for details. Examples of Utility planes with spin approval include the Cherokee and Cessna 150/152/172. Examples of Utility planes where intentional spins are prohibited include the Warrior/Archer and Grumman AA-1/5 series. Make sure you know which it is in your Utility airplane lest you become a test pilot (see post 7, above).
 
Ron Levy said:
Just being in the Utility category does not mean intentional spins are approved. The manufacturer of a Utility airplane has the option of doing the full Aerobatic category spin series and obtaining approval for intentional spins, or just doing the Normal category incipient spin recovery package and having intentional spins prohibited. See 14 CFR 23.221 (linked above) for details. Examples of Utility planes with spin approval include the Cherokee and Cessna 150/152/172. Examples of Utility planes where intentional spins are prohibited include the Warrior/Archer and Grumman AA-1/5 series. Make sure you know which it is in your Utility airplane lest you become a test pilot (see post 7, above).
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I understand. I have a 1967 Cherokee 140 and it is placarded for spins in the utility category. That is what I meant. I have never experienced a spin or spin recovery and thought it might be useful from a safety perspective.
 
John221us said:
I understand. I have a 1967 Cherokee 140 and it is placarded for spins in the utility category. That is what I meant.
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Good. Just wanted to be sure you undestood and that nobody else misunderstood.

I have never experienced a spin or spin recovery and thought it might be useful from a safety perspective.
Click to expand...
Then go grab an instructor and try it. I'm certainly available if you can get to Salisbury MD.
 
John221us said:
Thanks for the offer, but it might be a bit far to travel in the Cherokee :wink2:
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Next time I'm headed to California, I'll let you know. OTOH, I did fly my Tiger from here on the Eastern Shore of Maryland to Sacramento CA and back for the 2005 Grumman convention at McClellan.
 
Ron Levy said:
Next time I'm headed to California, I'll let you know. OTOH, I did fly my Tiger from here on the Eastern Shore of Maryland to Sacramento CA and back for the 2005 Grumman convention at McClellan.
Click to expand...

Yeah, an epic x-country is on my list of things to do. Someday. Definately let me know if you are up this way.
 
MachFly said:
I can't remember, what kind of wing does the 150 have?
Click to expand...
That's actually an interesting question with regard to spins.

Along with the low-volume C-207, the C-150/152 was the only high-wing Cessna single of the 1970s that was never factory equipped with the "cuffed" leading edge. When a factory test pilot tried a spin series with a "cuffed" C-150, a two-turn spin took thirteen turns to recover. They tried several variations of the leading edge, but none gave acceptable spin recovery. That was the end of the "cuffed" leading edge on the C-150.

A factory test pilot also tried a spin in a C-150 with the O-320 engine STC. With the heavier engine and battery moved to the tailcone, he found the spin flatter than normal and the recovery "sluggish."
 
Last edited:
Pilawt said:
That's actually an interesting question with regard to spins.

Along with the low-volume C-207, the C-150/152 was the only high-wing Cessna single of the 1970s that was never factory equipped with the "cuffed" leading edge. When a factory test pilot tried a spin series with a "cuffed" C-150, a two-turn spin took thirteen turns to recover. They tried several variations of the leading edge, but none gave acceptable spin recovery. That was the end of the "cuffed" leading edge on the C-150.

A factory test pilot also tried a spin in a C-150 with the O-320 engine STC. With the heavier engine and battery moved to the tailcone, he found the spin flatter than normal and the recovery "sluggish."
Click to expand...


Grumman AA-1 series have a tubular wing spar that runs the length of the each wing, and doubles as the fuel tanks. During the spin all the fuel could slosh around in there moving outboard towards the wingtips.
 
glydrflyr said:
The original Cherokee series, with the "Hershey bar" wing, was designed, in large part, by Fred Weick who also designed the non-stallable, non-spinnable Ercoupe. These airplanes were very, very difficult to stall, and would just kind of bobble around when stalls were attempted. I could never get my 1969 D model to stall like my 1958 Cessna 172 would. It would simply sink with the nose abnormally high until I got tired of this and recovered. However, there are tales of Cherokees entering flat spins from which recovery was not possible before running out of altitude. There was a memorable story in FLYING magazine where two instructor pilots got a Cherokee into a flat spin, and promptly climbed up onto the glare shield over the instrument panel to get more weight on the nose. This unusual procedure did the trick, as they both lived to tell the tale. Didn't mention if they needed new boxers on landing though. I guess the moral of this story is "Don't provoke a Cherokee, either Hershey Bar wing or tapered wing, into trying to stall. It may get seriously mad at you and go into the dreaded flat spin". Hope this helps you.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure about that. I stalled my tapered wing 161 probably close to, or more than a hundred times. Admittedly, every now and then, my Warrior seemed like it required somewhat exaggerated effort to put it in a stall, especially power on, but for the most part, it was easy to stall.

I never put it into a spin.

-John
 
bnt83 said:
Grumman AA-1 series have a tubular wing spar that runs the length of the each wing, and doubles as the fuel tanks. During the spin all the fuel could slosh around in there moving outboard towards the wingtips.
Click to expand...
That is corect, and it's another reason you should respect the "Intentional Spins Prohibited" limitation on them.
 
Pilawt said:
That's actually an interesting question with regard to spins.

Along with the low-volume C-207, the C-150/152 was the only high-wing Cessna single of the 1970s that was never factory equipped with the "cuffed" leading edge. When a factory test pilot tried a spin series with a "cuffed" C-150, a two-turn spin took thirteen turns to recover. They tried several variations of the leading edge, but none gave acceptable spin recovery. That was the end of the "cuffed" leading edge on the C-150.

A factory test pilot also tried a spin in a C-150 with the O-320 engine STC. With the heavier engine and battery moved to the tailcone, he found the spin flatter than normal and the recovery "sluggish."
Click to expand...

I think he wa referring to a Cherokee 150, they have a Hershey bar wing.
 
Skylane81E said:
Is a Warrior certified in the utility category?
Click to expand...
It is if loaded within the limits specified in the TCDS:

Center of Gravity Range Normal Category
(+82.0) to (+93.0) at 2050 lb. or less
(+88.6) to (+93.0) at 2550 lb.
Utility Category
(+82.0) to (+93.0) at 2050 lb. or less​
(+83.0) to (+93.0) at 2130 lb.
Click to expand...
 
glydrflyr said:
The original Cherokee series, with the "Hershey bar" wing, was designed, in large part, by Fred Weick who also designed the non-stallable, non-spinnable Ercoupe. These airplanes were very, very difficult to stall, and would just kind of bobble around when stalls were attempted. I could never get my 1969 D model to stall like my 1958 Cessna 172 would. It would simply sink with the nose abnormally high until I got tired of this and recovered. However, there are tales of Cherokees entering flat spins from which recovery was not possible before running out of altitude. There was a memorable story in FLYING magazine where two instructor pilots got a Cherokee into a flat spin, and promptly climbed up onto the glare shield over the instrument panel to get more weight on the nose. This unusual procedure did the trick, as they both lived to tell the tale. Didn't mention if they needed new boxers on landing though. I guess the moral of this story is "Don't provoke a Cherokee, either Hershey Bar wing or tapered wing, into trying to stall. It may get seriously mad at you and go into the dreaded flat spin". Hope this helps you.
Click to expand...

This is why airplanes get a bad name. People spewing misremembered information about a completely different model aircraft. Your tale was a PA38 Tomahawk, not a PA28 Cherokee.
 
And thank you for telling us about it 8 years and a handful of months later - even though the mistake was already addressed.
 
glydrflyr said:
Fred Weick who also designed the non-stallable, non-spinnable Ercoupe. These airplanes were very, very difficult to stall, and would just kind of bobble around when stalls were attempted.
Click to expand...

"non-stallable"???

How does that work? It'll fly at 1kt indicated?
 
donjohnston said:
"non-stallable"???

How does that work? It'll fly at 1kt indicated?
Click to expand...
Keep in mind the user hasn’t been active for over eight years. It’s unlikely you’ll ever receive an answer.
 
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