Spin training

[Diana]

Had some spin training today in a Citabria. I learned a lot, even more doing actual hands on than riding along with my personal “spin mentor"

After three turns I started to get dizzy, by the fourth turn I could see how easy it would be to forget things and lose focus. I was surprised it took so long (one and a half turns) to recover from the first three turns. The Citabria was turning pretty fast by then. I wonder how you get over being dizzy; I don’t remember that before, but maybe it’s the altitude here?

The Citabria is so docile; I couldn’t get it into a cross-control spin, but tried twice. I guess we needed to use a bit of power to get it to happen?

I played with recovering at the beginning of the incipient stage when it hadn’t made a full rotation yet. That was also a good experience, to practice reacting to an inadvertent spin at that phase.

We ran out of time or would have done more spins. For fun we did a few aileron rolls on the way back in.

Had a great CFI and would book him for more spin training if I was going to be out here longer. I had asked him to talk me through every movement every step of the way, and am now ready to try it with him riding along, but not talking till I screw up. Still not ready to try them on my own yet. How do CFI’s determine when to give the OK to someone to do spins solo?

 

[Toby]

Had some spin training today in a Citabria. I learned a lot, even more doing actual hands on than riding along with my personal “spin mentor"

And some random reactions:

After three turns I started to get dizzy, by the fourth turn I could see how easy it would be to forget things and lose focus.

Were you able to count them?

I was surprised it took so long (one and a half turns) to recover from the first three turns.

Does it take fewer turns if you do fewer turns in the spin? Does it take a greater number of turns if you do more or you're spinning faster? I'm just wondering.

The Citabria was turning pretty fast by then. I wonder how you get over being dizzy; I don’t remember that before, but maybe it’s the altitude here?

I'd be interested in knowing this, too. (I'm living vicariously through your experience, can you tell?)

I played with recovering at the beginning of the incipient stage when it hadn’t made a full rotation yet. That was also a good experience, to practice reacting to an inadvertent spin at that phase.

Yes, I think at all phases it's good. Preferably before dizziness sets in.

How many G's did you pull coming out of the spins, if you know? How fast were you going? Also, how much altitude did you lose in the 4-turn spin?

Still not ready to try them on my own yet. How do CFI’s determine when to give the OK to someone to do spins solo?

I'm very interested in the answer to this one, too. In my head I have a magic number for myself -- 50. That would be the number of spins I would want to do before I would try it on my own. I'd also want it to feel like a plain old maneuver. It might take me more than 50 to get there, though.

 

[Diana]

Re: Spin training....Chip?

Were you able to count them?

Well, I was planning to count them but the picture got a tad blurry after the second spin and I was just trying to focus on keeping the rudder in and the stick back and not get overwhelmed and could no longer multi-task and lost count. Fortunately the CFI was counting out loud for us.

Does it take fewer turns if you do fewer turns in the spin? Does it take a greater number of turns if you do more or you're spinning faster? I'm just wondering.

I think it takes more turns to recover as you do more turns, but I don't know if it is proportional as you keep going down. Chip, where are you? Can you answer this one?

How many G's did you pull coming out of the spins, if you know? How fast were you going? Also, how much altitude did you lose in the 4-turn spin?

I don't think we pulled much. Maybe 2 G's at the most. I can't remember the airspeed after the recovery. Seems like we lost maybe 1200 feet.

If I was going to be here longer, I'd go with him again next weekend.

 

[citationxjl]

I teach spin training at our flight school in a decathalon. I find that you lose the most altitude/turn during the incipient phase. I dont get dizzy until recovery, and only then if I have done a spin with a lot of turns. You definitely get used to it as time goes. I used to get a little light headed the first few acro flights, but now I can go all day and don't feel anything. Fruit seems to work for me though...after a flight when I was tired or had a headache, I just had an apple or drank some juice and I was ready to go to class.

 

[gibbons]

Re: Spin training....Chip?

I think it takes more turns to recover as you do more turns, but I don't know if it is proportional as you keep going down. Chip, where are you? Can you answer this one?

I'm not spin expert by any means. I can do them and recover from them, but I can't always explain them. Spins are very complicated aerodynamically and there are others on the board much more qualified to comment....

but is that going to stop me? I don't think so...

In my experience.... the number of turns it takes to recover isn't necessarily dependent on how many turns you've done. Recovery is dependent on three things: 1) Momentum (so three turns will be faster than one turn, but seven turns might not be faster than three turns); 2) your CG (more aft, shorter arm, slower recovery); and 3) how effective the rudder is during that particular spin (given how flat the airplane is spinning and/or how much blanking of the rudder the elevator is doing).

Let's say your Citabria reaches a deep spin by three turns and is spinning at full momentum. At seven turns it's not going any faster than it was at three turns so recovery isn't any different at seven than at three (all other variables being constant). But if the spin has been accelerated (by aileron or elevator inputs), or if the CG is a bit more aft and the moment is shorter (like if I have a passenger), or if you leave just a bit of power on and flatten the spin a bit (less effective rudder), it can take a lot longer to recover.

Like Jeff, I don't get dizzy during the spin but have gotten dizzy during the recovery. This happened once after an accelerated spin of five or six turns with a pretty aggressive pull out. Diana was along for that ride and I think we both had the leans for a few seconds. It's very important for me to look down the nose and well in front of the airplane - not at a wing - during the spin. Otherwise I'm probably going to hurl.

Diana, I am SO GLAD you're getting Citabria spin training. I think it will make you a much safer aerobatic pilot and will give you a great deal more confidence doing acro in the Citabria. Good for you!!

Chip

 

[Diana]

Re: Spin training....Chip?

Like Jeff, I don't get dizzy during the spin but have gotten dizzy during the recovery. This happened once after an accelerated spin of five or six turns with a pretty aggressive pull out. Diana was along for that ride and I think we both had the leans for a few seconds.

OH? I don't remember the part where you got dizzy. Glad you didn't tell me then.

It's very important for me to look down the nose and well in front of the airplane - not at a wing - during the spin. Otherwise I'm probably going to hurl.

It might be kinda neat to see that view (the view looking out at the wing) on video or even to look while somebody else is PIC in the spin. Is that on your video, I can't remember.

Diana, I am SO GLAD you're getting Citabria spin training. I think it will make you a much safer aerobatic pilot and will give you a great deal more confidence doing acro in the Citabria. Good for you!!

Thanks Chip, for your insistence and persistence concerning spin training, and for your words of encouragement.

Now, the trick will be finding somebody to provide spin training when I get back home.

 

[Diana]

I teach spin training at our flight school in a decathalon. I find that you lose the most altitude/turn during the incipient phase. I dont get dizzy until recovery, and only then if I have done a spin with a lot of turns. You definitely get used to it as time goes. I used to get a little light headed the first few acro flights, but now I can go all day and don't feel anything. Fruit seems to work for me though...after a flight when I was tired or had a headache, I just had an apple or drank some juice and I was ready to go to class.

Jeff, what kind of spins do you include in your training? How many sessions would that involve? What criteria do you use prior to giving someone the OK to go out and do spins solo? Do you teach inverted spins in the Decathlon?

Thanks.

 

[Toby]

Re: Spin training....Chip?

It might be kinda neat to see that view (the view looking out at the wing) on video or even to look while somebody else is PIC in the spin. Is that on your video, I can't remember.

Diana, on the video Vinny made with David Windmiller they showed the various spins with three views -- the panel, out the front, and over the wing. It was really interesting seeing the development of the flat spin out the side -- they added power and I think aileron (?) -- and the wing came up. I'll ask him if he's planning to copyright that video and sell it. I'd buy one for sure.

 

[citationxjl]

Jeff, what kind of spins do you include in your training? How many sessions would that involve? What criteria do you use prior to giving someone the OK to go out and do spins solo? Do you teach inverted spins in the Decathlon?

Thanks.

Our school doesnt allow spins solo. Most of the spin training I do is for the CFI applicants. I wont give them the spin endorsement until they can get out of the spins a few times without my help at all. I do all different entries: power on, power off, cross control. And I do incipient recovery, fully developed, and I like to do a spin with quite a few turns (to show that it will recover the same from 3 as it will from a lot more. I have done inverted spins, but not very often.

 

[Brian Austin]

...I do all different entries: power on, power off, cross control. And I do incipient recovery, fully developed, and I like to do a spin with quite a few turns (to show that it will recover the same from 3 as it will from a lot more. I have done inverted spins, but not very often.

And power-on stalls still give me the willies. Sheesh.

I gotta get some acro time, I think.

 

[wsuffa]

And power-on stalls still give me the willies. Sheesh.

I gotta get some acro time, I think.

Ever since I put the VG's on my plane we can get 30-degrees of pitch at 65% power and not pull a full stall. Talk about hanging on the prop....

 

[Brian Austin]

Ever since I put the VG's on my plane we can get 30-degrees of pitch at 65% power and not pull a full stall. Talk about hanging on the prop....

I absolutely hate waiting for that break while trying to keep it coordinated. The anticipation drives me NUTS.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I gotta get some acro time, I think.

Careful what you wish for, Brian. Acro is one of those supercalifragilisticexpialidocious kinda things.

 

[wsuffa]

Oh, Brian....

I saw a For Sale listing at the airport today for a Citabria.....

 

[Brian Austin]

Oh, Brian....

I saw a For Sale listing at the airport today for a Citabria.....

(hands over ears) blahblahblah...I can't hear you...

In all honesty, a Citabria doesn't really fit my mission profile for my first plane. I refuse to discuss a SECOND plane until the ink is dry on my title for the first one.

 

[gibbons]

It does mine! I'm looking for a Citabria. Got any info on this one?

Chip

 

[Laurie]

I absolutely hate waiting for that break while trying to keep it coordinated. The anticipation drives me NUTS.

That's normal Brian. A lot of students hate the anticipation of that power on stall because of the fear of the spin. I was there when I was learning, and actually got to where I thought an incipient spin was normal because I did it every time. Needless to say, my instructor wasn't quite getting through to me on how to use the rudder.

Some acro training will help but beware, it is addictive.

What I teach during power on stalls :dance: is to focus the vision outside. I start with getting the attitude that will get us just under the stall and have the student practice keeping the nose straight with the rudder and not letting him/her use the ailerons at all. Remember, it's a yaw you are correcting in the stall, not a roll. Aileron control will just aggravate the situation. Once we've got the nose straight I'll have the student continue to increase pitch until a stall happens. It'll be a coordinated and docile stall every time. In my experience, watching the turn coordinator is no good.....the aircraft will break right every time. Look outside and just steer the nose with your feet with gentle right rudder pressure to keep it straight. You'll be so focused on that, the anticipation of the stall is gone and you'll get a perfect stall while maintaining heading exactly every time.

Just my two cents.....

Laurie

 

[gismo]

Re: Spin training....Chip?

In my experience.... the number of turns it takes to recover isn't necessarily dependent on how many turns you've done. Recovery is dependent on three things: 1) Momentum (so three turns will be faster than one turn, but seven turns might not be faster than three turns); 2) your CG (more aft, shorter arm, slower recovery); and 3) how effective the rudder is during that particular spin (given how flat the airplane is spinning and/or how much blanking of the rudder the elevator is doing).

Let's say your Citabria reaches a deep spin by three turns and is spinning at full momentum. At seven turns it's not going any faster than it was at three turns so recovery isn't any different at seven than at three (all other variables being constant). But if the spin has been accelerated (by aileron or elevator inputs), or if the CG is a bit more aft and the moment is shorter (like if I have a passenger), or if you leave just a bit of power on and flatten the spin a bit (less effective rudder), it can take a lot longer to recover. Chip

IME assuming you don't flatten the spin with power or aileron, the rotation rate actually decreases a bit after the first few rotations. In any case once things stabilize, I'm pretty certain that additional rotations will not cause any increase in the recovery time/ rotation. WRT power on the recovery, in some cases you can recover faster with power than without according to some experts, although I assume that means adding power as or after you apply full opposite rudder.

THE most important item to take away from spin training IMO is to remember that you need to hold the anti-spin controls until the rotation stops. Many pilots are surprised at how long it can take and may try other control inputs when the first attempt at recovery fails to end the spin immediately, which WILL prolong the spin.

Like Jeff, I don't get dizzy during the spin but have gotten dizzy during the recovery. This happened once after an accelerated spin of five or six turns with a pretty aggressive pull out. Diana was along for that ride and I think we both had the leans for a few seconds. It's very important for me to look down the nose and well in front of the airplane - not at a wing - during the spin. Otherwise I'm probably going to hurl. Chip

I think it makes no difference to me where I look as long as I don't tip or rotate my head rapidly. I would suggest that if you want to look out the wing that you turn your head only as far as necessary and look sideways with your eyes. I also suspect that dizziness upon recovery may be due to the pitching movement of your head during the pullup. I have also found that in airplanes with a headrest that I'm far more comfortable holding my head against it than I am if I let my head bob around.

Diana, I am SO GLAD you're getting Citabria spin training. I think it will make you a much safer aerobatic pilot and will give you a great deal more confidence doing acro in the Citabria. Good for you!! Chip

I feel the same way. After doing hundreds of spins in several different planes I'm as comfortable spinning an airplane as doing most any other acrobatic maneuver, and this is a good place to be. It's not difficult to inadvertently enter a spin when botching almost any maneuver (BTDTMT) and once you start to understand that you can recover from any spin given enough altitude (in an aircraft certified for spins) by doing the same thing each time, you will lose some of that concern lurking in the back of your head about falling out of whatever you are attempting into a spin.

 

[gismo]

Had some spin training today in a Citabria. I learned a lot, even more doing actual hands on than riding along with my personal “spin mentor"

After three turns I started to get dizzy, by the fourth turn I could see how easy it would be to forget things and lose focus. I was surprised it took so long (one and a half turns) to recover from the first three turns. The Citabria was turning pretty fast by then. I wonder how you get over being dizzy; I don’t remember that before, but maybe it’s the altitude here?

I don't recall ever getting dizzy while spinning or during the recovery, but I think this may be greatly affected by how still you hold your head. It's OK to look around with your eyes, but whenever you move your head, especially tilting it forward or to the side, you can really mess up your sense of balance as the centrifigal force throws the fluid in your inner ear around.

The Citabria is so docile; I couldn’t get it into a cross-control spin, but tried twice. I guess we needed to use a bit of power to get it to happen?

You're probably running out of elevator. The cure is to kick the rudder more quickly and possibly pitch up more agressively. I doubt that power will help except in the direction that P-torque takes you. The key to starting a spin is to generate a yaw moment, not a yawed attitude, when the stall breaks.

I played with recovering at the beginning of the incipient stage when it hadn’t made a full rotation yet. That was also a good experience, to practice reacting to an inadvertent spin at that phase.

That's important. You need to be able to terminate a spin ASAP when it comes unexpectedly, but you also must learn to exit a fully developed one.

We ran out of time or would have done more spins. For fun we did a few aileron rolls on the way back in.

Had a great CFI and would book him for more spin training if I was going to be out here longer. I had asked him to talk me through every movement every step of the way, and am now ready to try it with him riding along, but not talking till I screw up. Still not ready to try them on my own yet. How do CFI’s determine when to give the OK to someone to do spins solo?

 

[Ken Ibold]

The cure is to kick the rudder more quickly and possibly pitch up more agressively.

Diana, this recalls an earlier conversation we had.

 

[Diana]

Diana, this recalls an earlier conversation we had.

Yes, it does. I lost that email when I had computer problems; wish I would have saved it. It's the kind of information that I need to go back and read again from time to time, as a "gentle" reminder.

 

[AirBaker]

I absolutely hate waiting for that break while trying to keep it coordinated. The anticipation drives me NUTS.

Don't sneak up on the stall, slow it down then pull back a 'little' more aggressively.

 

[wsuffa]

It does mine! I'm looking for a Citabria. Got any info on this one?

Chip

Chip,

I'll grab the info next time I'm down there...

bill

 

[lsimonds]

Spins are so dramatic and surprising the first time that it seems dangerous (my opinion) for students to practice stalls solo without having experienced one. I got my private before all the hooplah, and we did spins before I went out stalling the C150 alone. Based on your experience, Toby, what do you think? I guess it's a silly opinion of mine because the accident rate is very low or nil for students spinning in while practicing stalls alone. So I know my thoughts aren't based on sound data.

 

[BruceAir]

I've compiled several links that I point out to my spin students. You may find them useful. Surf over to http://www.bruceair.com/spins.htm and scroll down to the heading "Links to Information about Stalls and Spins."

-Bruce
www.BruceAir.com

 

[gismo]

After reading all this talk about spins I had to try a little spinning Thursday when I was at the airport with some time to kill. As usual I found it difficult to keep the Porterfield in a spin when it's just me in the front seat. Next time I'll have to try it from the back seat. The only way I could get it to spin more than one turn was to spin to the left with power on.

 

[Toby]

Spins are so dramatic and surprising the first time that it seems dangerous (my opinion) for students to practice stalls solo without having experienced one. I got my private before all the hooplah, and we did spins before I went out stalling the C150 alone. Based on your experience, Toby, what do you think? I guess it's a silly opinion of mine because the accident rate is very low or nil for students spinning in while practicing stalls alone. So I know my thoughts aren't based on sound data.

I think this is a good idea, Lisa. With the emphasis on recognizing the onset of a stall and learning how to react correctly to prevent a full stall, something major is left out. Spins should go back into the primary training curriculum. Not a silly opinion. I know Dr. Bruce would agree with you.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Spins should go back into the primary training curriculum. Not a silly opinion. I know Dr. Bruce would agree with you.

Not Dr. Bruce, but in analyzing every single NTSB accident report for the last 7 years, I came to the conclusion that fully half of airplane accidents are a result of poor stall/spin skills. That's not to say that they are necessarily the result of stalls or spins (though many are), but so many pilots are so uncomfortable with the low-speed regime of their airplane that they end up flying way too fast in the pattern and way too fast over the fence. Runway overruns, porpoises, runway loss of control and a whole bunch of other bad things await those who are shy about (or incapable of) nailing an appropriate, but low, airspeed.

 

[bbchien]

For me it's even simpler. How can I in good conscience allow a primary student to meet the dragon alone for the first time? We teach "stay away from his cave" but the inadvertent stall is not going to occur when the pilot is co-ordinated and ahead of the game. He's going to be distracted, or trying to clear that tree, or something is happening in the back seat, or carb heat is inadvertently on and the power isn't there.

Now in fairness to the FAA, I have to point out the USN's experience with ejection. There was a point (just before me) when they had decided that EVERY pilot had to go through the actual operation and therefore the actual eject. There was an entire squadron down with broken legs....it was back to the manual and the awareness drills.

All my primaries get to watch a recovery, do a recovery, and then do it to the other side (which can be sorta hard in a 150 when that particular one only wants to break left...).

 

[lsimonds]

Hey, compadres, thanks for the validation. I would very much like to become a CFI one day, and I have thought that I would not want to turn a student loose without the experience Bruce described giving his. I'll check out that link, too. Thank you.

 

[Diana]

I've compiled several links that I point out to my spin students. You may find them useful. Surf over to http://www.bruceair.com/spins.htm and scroll down to the heading "Links to Information about Stalls and Spins."

-Bruce
www.BruceAir.com

Bruce, your web site looks GREAT. It will take some time to get through all that information. Thanks.

 

[Diana]

After reading all this talk about spins I had to try a little spinning Thursday when I was at the airport with some time to kill.

It's contagious, isn't it?

As usual I found it difficult to keep the Porterfield in a spin when it's just me in the front seat. Next time I'll have to try it from the back seat. The only way I could get it to spin more than one turn was to spin to the left with power on.

Hmmm. Wonder why. Is it because it's so stable? Is it because of the center of gravity?

 

[gismo]

Hmmm. Wonder why. Is it because it's so stable? Is it because of the center of gravity?

I think it's because the CG is pretty far forward when I solo from the front. I also think the elevator authority is deliberately limited in this plane.

 

[Diana]

Hey, Chuck or Brian, would you please move this to the aerobatic forum?

Thanks

 

[bbchien]

Not Chuck or Brian but so moved.

 

[Greebo]

Did the move not work for you Bruce? As of an hour after your post, it's still in Pilot Training...

Moving it now.