Speed restrictions

[Speed]

So, here's a question. You are flying the Rams 5 arrival into Denver. At some point you are given "Direct RAMMS, cross RAMMS at 17,000 and 250 knots." About fifteen miles prior to RAMMS you are given a heading, say 120 vectors for approach, descend and maintain 13,000. Normally we don't start slowing until five prior to the speed restriction, so we're still at 300kts plus. Are we still expected to slow to 250kts, even though we aren't crossing Ramms? Should we maintain 17000 ft until passing abeam Ramms before starting down to 13,000? I was arguing that the speed is a sequencing issue, therefore ATC would expect the 250 kts. My captain is arguing the other way, saying we aren't crossing RAMMS, therefore the crossing restriction/speed reduction is no longer valid. What would you think?

I was going to email this question to the Denver center, but their webpage doesn't seem to be up and is redirecting me to a generic northwest region FAA page.

 

[Auburn_CFI]

At that point you turn to the assigned heading. You descend to the assigned altitude and your previous restriction is void. I would ask the controller if he/she wants a speed if the frequency isn't to congested. But now you speed restricted by normal FAR's (e.g. 250 KIAS below 10,000) not your previously assigned crossing restriction. I hope this clears up any confusion. Your Captain was correct.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Good question. Normally, on an arrival or departure, being given a new heading or altitude doesn't remove the speed restriction on the STAR/DP.

However, the notes on the RAMMS5 arrival say:

VERTICAL NAVIGATION PLANNING INFORMATION
TURBOJETS: Expect to cross [RAMMS] at 17000 and 250 knots or as assigned by ATC.

I think the "or" in there covered you. There was a change in your instructions. The inbound course on the arrival was 131, he gave you a heading of 120, vectors for the approach. You were no longer going over RAMMS, so how could you slow to 250 before RAMMS?

My stab at it: I'd ask for clarification on the speed, but as long as you're 250 below 10K I think you'd be legal and following the arrival. If I'm wrong, I'll be corrected by the more experienced IFR pilots on the board!

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Also, from the AIM 5-4-1:

1. STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP procedures may have mandatory speeds and/or crossing altitudes published. Other STARs may have planning information depicted to inform pilots what clearances or restrictions to "expect." "Expect" altitudes/speeds are not considered STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP procedures crossing restrictions unless verbally issued by ATC.

NOTE-
The "expect" altitudes/speeds are published so that pilots may have the information for planning purposes. These altitudes/speeds shall not be used in the event of lost communications unless ATC has specifically advised the pilot to expect these altitudes/speeds as part of a further clearance.

The RAMMS5 clearly falls in the latter category (what to "expect"). It uses both the words "planning" and "expect" in the notes. You expected, and received, that clearance--but, it was superceded later with new instructions.

 

[poadeleted20]

The AIM doesn't address this case, so I think you need to ask the controller for clarification. Guessing what's in his mind is too likely to cause someone to run up someone else's tailpipe.

 

[Speed]

Well, the previous post make sense, but it got us chewed out. So, I think a NASA form and in the future as Ron says...

 

[TMetzinger]

As I see it (and as I fly it) when ATC starts giving me instructions and vectors, I'm not on the STAR anymore. I would in this case (since I was given an altitude AND speed restriction previously) query if they still wanted us slower - "You still want us at 250 passing 17000?". The only stupid question is the one you WISHED you'd asked.