Spacing of close parallel traffic?

Discussion in 'Change to my Frequency...' started by POA_Newbie, Nov 7, 2020.

  1. POA_Newbie

    POA_Newbie Filing Flight Plan

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    Lets take an airport like KVNY for my question....you have a two close parallel runways....one is short and mostly sees piston GA. The other is long and sees all of the jet traffic. Lets assume day VFR. 16L/R

    What is the ATC standard separation putting dissimilar planes on parallel finals here? Is there a standard? Using Google Maps to measure I see about 380' centerline to centerline between 16R and 16L.

    Is it acceptable to have jet traffic landing 16R 380' from the wingtip of a piston single on final for 16L?

    If there are standards or rules that apply to this scenario where would I look?
     
  2. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Well a lot of factors here. We talking VFR aircraft or IFR aircraft? Between two VFRs in a class C nothing. VFR vs IFR, 500 ft vertical or target resolution.

    Now two IFRs? VNY doesn’t have an IAP to 16L so we don’t have to worry about dual IAPs to parallel runways here. Doesn’t look like there’s enough spacing to run simultaneous IAPs even if they had an IAP for 16L. You could with special approval / monitoring equipment but that’s a whole other deal. So you could have an ILS on 16R with a visual to 16L. Based on the spacing between parallels you’d have to have approved separation with the visual behind the IAP unless visual sep is applied. Without visual sep and typical small / large weight class into VNY, you’re looking at 1,000 vertical or 3miles lateral. Once visual sep is approved, yes, you could have an aircraft off the wing of another aircraft on final. That is unless VNY has some crazy LOA that doesn’t allow any aircraft to overtake another going to the parallel. Also, if you’re a small (probably are) they’ll issue wake turb advisories behind any large, B757 or heavy aircraft. That’s if the parallel is less than 2,500 ft apart (probably is).

    Some references- 3-2-4 of the AIM. Also if you’re interested in simultaneous IAPs 5-4-13.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
  3. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There are rules. Depends on type of aircraft aircraft involved. There are 'categories' for this. Do not confuse them with any other use of 'category.' these categories are just for the use of runway separation by controllers. Cat I is the single engine props less than 12,500 lbs. Cat II is multi engine props less than 12,500 lbs. Cat III is all jets and anything over 12,500 lbs. For Cat I and II, it's 300 feet between centerlines and 200 feet between edges. If there is a Cat III it's 500 between centerlines and 400 between edges. If there is a Heavy it's 700 between centerlines and 600 between edges. That's the basics. There is other stuff involving wake turbulence.
     
  4. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    PTK in Pontiac, MI is only about 500' apart and I've had pretty much a simultaneous touch down with traffic on the parallel a couple of time. VFR of course.
     
  5. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Here’s where you look. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/7110.65Y_ATC_Bsc_w_Chg_1_2_dtd_7-16-20.pdf
    Chapter 3, Section 10 for arrivals. Section 9 is about departures.
     
  6. POA_Newbie

    POA_Newbie Filing Flight Plan

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    The basis of my post comes from getting RAs while being vectored for these visual approaches with parallel traffic very close to us. It seems the system switches to TA Only around 900-1100 agl based on radar altimeter data.......we are flying a sub 30k lbs business jet.
     
  7. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Sounds like a software issue where the programmers didn't take VFR ops into account.
     
  8. POA_Newbie

    POA_Newbie Filing Flight Plan

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    VFR , VMC, IFR, IMC.....traffic in sight or traffic not in sight.....our sop doesn't recognize those things.....nor does TCAS. It only requires we react. A RA is a RA.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
  9. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    ...which doesn't take into account VFR parallel approaches.
     
  10. AlphaMike

    AlphaMike Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I use to fly into PTK a lot over the spring / summer. It was cool to fly the ILS BC then taxi over to Barnstormers for some cheep full service gas! Most of the times I've landed, the parallel runway was closed. I heard Barnstormers is now Signature and they added a .50 fee to the fuel. Figures..
     
  11. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    I go in there for Lifeline/Angel Flight and Operation Good Cheer. Slot reservations required for OGC, and they pack you in pretty close.
     
  12. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    RAs with parallel ops have been a limitation of the system since TCAS began. Especially with two aircraft aimed at each other on base legs or one in a base leg with another flying a long straight in approach.

    You said you were flying a business jet? Most have ops specs stating exactly what the crew must do* so there’s no confusion when swapping out crew members. It’s usually written and not optional.

    * Even Part 91 ops usually have something written over and beyond the RA regs.

    What does your chief pilot say? Do that.
     
  13. Jmcmanna

    Jmcmanna Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What TCAS says and what is “legal” per the 7110.65 are not the same thing. In class B airspace VFR and IFR traffic is perfectly legal to cross paths with 500’ vertical separation, but the IFR airliner gets an RA every time it happens.

    I don’t have an answer for OP other than closely spaced parallel approaches between IFR/VFR aircraft are perfectly legal, but the TCAS logic doesn’t always follow the same criteria.
     
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  14. POA_Newbie

    POA_Newbie Filing Flight Plan

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  15. kkoran

    kkoran Pattern Altitude

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    JO 7110.65Y - Air Traffic Control
    upload_2021-5-12_19-2-21.png
     
  16. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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  17. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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  18. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Line Up and Wait

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    I used to fly into CHD in the Citation several times a year. A few times we would have a trainer aircraft on one side, a trainer helicopter on the other and we were passing both.
     
  19. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    When you accept a visual approach, you’re taking responsibility for separation. Apparently what you’re accepting visually isn’t what TCAS is programmed to allow.
     
  20. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Well, a visual approach utilizing visual separation, then yes. But, a VA still requires IFR separation from other VAs unless visual sep is used. In the OP’s case, the other aircraft is either a VFR or a VA utilizing visual sep.
     
  21. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    TCAS is to keep you from smacking into aluminum, not flight plans. Not meant to be snarky, just a cute way of illustrating a point. The TCAS program got put on the fast track along with things like Mode C Veils and other requirements from this accident. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroméxico_Flight_498
     
  22. Hiflyr1

    Hiflyr1 Pre-Flight

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    Happens all the time for example KSNA I have landed a A300-600 right beside a J3 Cub on the short runway. If you both accept a visual approach you can do it and yes TCAS can give you a TA or a RA and you can disregard a RA if you are sure what’s causing it but you better be sure.
     
  23. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Depends on if you count number of events or severity of outcome of events.
     
  24. Doomer

    Doomer Filing Flight Plan

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    I got my PPL out of KPAE (Class D - Boeing Country) and it wasn't unusual to find yourself in your little C-152 bugsmasher lined up final on 34R with a 787 off your left wing on final 34L (the parallels are separated by the entire field though, so definitely not within 300 feet of each other). I'm not IFR rated so no idea about the separation requirements when shooting approaches, but my guess is they were visual and were considered "VFR" for that instance. I learned a LOT about wake turbulence as a student pilot.

    I really miss flying out of there. The airport turns into Class E after hours, and one of my coolest memories was doing my XC night requirement with my instructor. It was probably 1am, we were the only active airplane on the field, and we were taxing to 34L. Suddenly we heard "Dreamlifter XXX on final for 34L" come over the CTAF. We held short and that thing landed right in front of us. Wish I got a pic.