Something Fun, Inexpensive, Safe

OtisAir

Line Up and Wait
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Mar 13, 2008
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OtisAir
Howdy - I'm mildly interested in looking in to purchasing a 2 place ultralite. I'm wanting it to be open air, slow, and all around fun. I have a Cherokee 180 but the more I read about the world of Ultralite flying and talk to folks who own/fly them, the more I feel that I'm missing a great part of flying. I've looked at a couple of kit biplanes but haven't gone any further than looking. Something I can fly around the local area in for an hour or two would be great. I'd be happy to hear your ideas. Thanks!
 
I haven't personally studied them much, but my non-pilot father-in-law seems to like the Quad City Challenger series. I gave them a look-over a couple of years ago and didn't like the size of the tail in respect to the wings, etc. Since then, they have increased the rudder size and widened the frame a bit. They are pretty customizable as far as engine/wings/etc.

There are quite a few of them out flying, which should speak fairly well for them. Might be worth a look. http://www.quadcitychallenger.com/
 
Howdy - I'm mildly interested in looking in to purchasing a 2 place ultralite. I'm wanting it to be open air, slow, and all around fun. I have a Cherokee 180 but the more I read about the world of Ultralite flying and talk to folks who own/fly them, the more I feel that I'm missing a great part of flying. I've looked at a couple of kit biplanes but haven't gone any further than looking. Something I can fly around the local area in for an hour or two would be great. I'd be happy to hear your ideas. Thanks!

Eipper Quicksilver MXII, also available on amphibs.
 
I have been looking at the same type of aircraft for a few months now. I was first interested in the Challenger II, but I've heard some negative comments about roll authority with the flapperons. They don't have ailerons, but have a full span flap, that deploys independently to try rolling the plane. Apparently this produces a lot of adverse yaw, and the plane is controlled in roll more by the rudder. The vertical stabilizer has a mod for some big tabs mounted outboard of the elevator arm. They are supposed to be on every Challenger that has floats, although I've seen some without.

I'm now looking at the Buccaneer II amphib, but it also has a weakness, although not as bad. The gear legs don't take a lot of side force, and quite a number have broken, leading to a short ground-loop. Since there's a sponson outboard and below the strut brace, the wing isn't usually damaged, but the sponson, and part of the hull scrape, requiring repair.

The Eipper Quicksilver MX series are good planes in general. They've been around since the beginning and have fixed a lot of the early gaffes by now. It is a wire braced wing and the failure of any one wire could bring it down. I would recommend the later offerings like the Sport or GT models, which are strut braced, and a bit more costly.

The top of the line, start to get very expensive. I'm trying to stay under about $15k for one, and that's become a challenge to find one that's in decent condition, with good sails. Usually, every used one I've seen is going to need sails immediately, to a year, and that's about $3500 or so depending on model.
 
I have been looking at the same type of aircraft for a few months now. I was first interested in the Challenger II, but I've heard some negative comments about roll authority with the flapperons. They don't have ailerons, but have a full span flap, that deploys independently to try rolling the plane. Apparently this produces a lot of adverse yaw, and the plane is controlled in roll more by the rudder. The vertical stabilizer has a mod for some big tabs mounted outboard of the elevator arm. They are supposed to be on every Challenger that has floats, although I've seen some without.

Interesting, Doc.

My Dad has been talking these up for 10 years. He hasn't flown one yet but a couple of locals have them and love them.
 
this may be a very silly question but I've no clue on the regs of ultralites... would an amphib package require a sea rating? While it would be nuts for me to fly floats without training, is a cert required for floats on ultralites? What about a tailwheel endorsement along the same lines? Still huntin'
 
Ya know one of the lineman at Wings, bob, 9 short guy with glasses who is there every other Saturday, has a Kolb that was factory built that he'd like to sell, Ya might want to talk to him. Also I have a colleague who flies a powered parachute and LOVES it says it is the ultimate freedom. I suspect you are in good shape if the fan dies since your already in a chute.
 
I too have been looking at buying a LSA and was considering a Challenger II, after seeing the Ridge Runner III and Avid Flier, I have changed my mind. They are comparable in size, price and useful load, plus the wings fold.
 
Ya know one of the lineman at Wings, bob, 9 short guy with glasses who is there every other Saturday, has a Kolb that was factory built that he'd like to sell, Ya might want to talk to him. Also I have a colleague who flies a powered parachute and LOVES it says it is the ultimate freedom. I suspect you are in good shape if the fan dies since your already in a chute.

If it's a two seat, I'll talk to him about it. Have him, or you PM me, and we'll see where it goes.
 
this may be a very silly question but I've no clue on the regs of ultralites... would an amphib package require a sea rating? While it would be nuts for me to fly floats without training, is a cert required for floats on ultralites? What about a tailwheel endorsement along the same lines? Still huntin'

This is a quirky part of the regs to me. Best I can understand, you can buy a amphib, and if it is S-LSA, you could fly it solo on or off water, but not carry pax. If it's registered E-LSA, you would need a ASEL to land or takeoff from water.

As for TW, you would need the endorsement regardless of it's registration status.
 
As for TW, you would need the endorsement regardless of it's registration status.

I guess I need to go read part 103 regs again... if ultralight operations require no pilot certificate, why would you need an endorsement?

A quick search reveals nothing about tailwheel endorsements for part 103 ops:

Sec. 103.7 Certification and registration.

(a) Notwithstanding any other section pertaining to certification of
aircraft or their parts or equipment, ultralight vehicles and their
component parts and equipment are not required to meet the airworthiness
certification standards specified for aircraft or to have certificates
of airworthiness.
(b) Notwithstanding any other section pertaining to airman certification,
operators of ultralight vehicles are not required to meet any aeronautical
knowledge, age, or experience requirements to operate those vehicles or to
have airman or medical certificates.
(c) Notwithstanding any other section pertaining to registration and
marking of aircraft, ultralight vehicles are not required to be registered
or to bear markings of any type.
 
Troy, I may certainly have it wrong, but if you're a pilot, and operating an E-LSA, you exercising the privileges of your certificate. However, if it's an S-LSA, you are theoretically not using your certificate. One is an EXP plane, the other is a plans built by the owner/operator.

I don't know if any of the aircraft we're discussing are part 103 aircraft or not, but I don't think so.

Are you coming to my party on Sat?
 
I guess I need to go read part 103 regs again... if ultralight operations require no pilot certificate, why would you need an endorsement?

A quick search reveals nothing about tailwheel endorsements for part 103 ops:
The problem is, there's no such thing as a "two seat ultralight" any more. That was part of the Sport Pilot/Light Sport change; the training exemption previously extended to two-seat ultralights was eliminated, and two-seat ultralights had until last January to be converted to Experimental Special Light Sport aircraft.

So there's no such thing as a tailwheel or seaplane endorsement for Part 103, but there *is* no such thing as a two-seat Part 103 aircraft. They're all licensed aircraft now, and the normal rules apply. However, if I understand the rules correctly, you don't need the seaplane rating to fly an amphibious or float-equipped EXPERIMENTAL Light Sport Aircraft solo. If it's licensed as Special Light Sport, I believe you need the appropriate ratings.

Ron Wanttaja
 
The problem is, there's no such thing as a "two seat ultralight" any more. That was part of the Sport Pilot/Light Sport change; the training exemption previously extended to two-seat ultralights was eliminated, and two-seat ultralights had until last January to be converted to Experimental Special Light Sport aircraft.

So there's no such thing as a tailwheel or seaplane endorsement for Part 103, but there *is* no such thing as a two-seat Part 103 aircraft. They're all licensed aircraft now, and the normal rules apply. However, if I understand the rules correctly, you don't need the seaplane rating to fly an amphibious or float-equipped EXPERIMENTAL Light Sport Aircraft solo. If it's licensed as Special Light Sport, I believe you need the appropriate ratings.

Ron Wanttaja


As an add on to what Ron has written keep in mind that there was a window that closed (in January or February of this year I think) to allow heavy ULs to be registered as ELSA. If the aircraft didn't get registered before that window closed it won't ever be legal.

So if you are looking at the used market for what used to be a heavy UL make sure that the rigistration and AW certificate is in place.
 
Thanks for the great advice - and warnings. I do enjoy having someone along for the ride to enjoy the flight and destination so I'll continue to look for a two place unless I trade the Cherokee up for a 2 seat sportier (faster) aircraft. Perhaps a Glasair or EZ for long distance and a PPG for the local stuff.

Thanks again!
 
Howdy - I'm mildly interested in looking in to purchasing a 2 place ultralite. I'm wanting it to be open air, slow, and all around fun. I have a Cherokee 180 but the more I read about the world of Ultralite flying and talk to folks who own/fly them, the more I feel that I'm missing a great part of flying. I've looked at a couple of kit biplanes but haven't gone any further than looking. Something I can fly around the local area in for an hour or two would be great. I'd be happy to hear your ideas. Thanks!

Don't rule out a Titan Tornado. A couple years ago I finished my
S model and have been flying it since then. It's a blast. It's experimental
amateur built and fits under LSA regs so can be flown by anyone who's
a SP or higher. I've previously owned a 152, a couple Warriors, a
Sundowner and a Grumman Tiger. I just decided to go to cheap
flying.

http://www.titanaircraft.com
 
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