Some people should not blog - "landing a taildragger"

[lr60plt]

Just read this article emailed to me by someone...its almost frustrating that information like this is being spread on the internet to be picked up by those who dont know any better.

http://renegadeav8r.wordpress.com/2009/05/22/landing-the-citabria/

My favorite part is that on wheel landing:

Wheel landings are for Ex-Air Force pilots who don’t know any better, pilots with uncorrected myopia or for landing on long runways (10,000 ft.) with limited access in strong winds

And

It is not good technique for crosswinds as you must use the “crab” technique rather than wing down, so if the crosswind component is too great you will tend to “fly” off the runway



....anyway, just wanted to share my frustration. And figured this would allow for some fun wheel/3pt discussion. B)

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Just read this article emailed to me by someone...its almost frustrating that information like this is being spread on the internet to be picked up by those who dont know any better.

Clueless instructor training another generation of clueless instructors.

"NEVER use the BRAKES!!"
"Note to Renegade CFI’s: Any prospective TWP who touches the brakes with the aircraft traveling over 10 MPH should not be certified as safe for solo."


I assume he also teaches to never slip with flaps...

 

[Fearless Tower]

I assume he also teaches to never slip with flaps...

Yeah, 'cuz he probably hasn't flown anything other than a Citabria.


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[Fearless Tower]

It is idiots like this guy who make me want to get him into a DC-3 and tell him to go three-point it.....but only as long as I'm not in the airplane with him.


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[rottydaddy]

I still think "no brakes" is good advice for beginners, but he does harp on it too much, and there's no mention of when and how they could be used safely once one gets the hang of taxiing and landing properly. His assertion that they offer less control than the rudder is not quite right, either...especially at very low speeds.Overall, he sounds a bit too proud that he's landed a Citabria without bending it. And I also don't get the thing about xwind landings.

 

[RoscoeT]

So this looks like a flame thread...

When flying from the rear seat, however, your visibility will be restricted over the nose of the aircraft. When flying from the back seat, I favor a spot to the left of the nose and about 10 to 20 feet ahead. In any event, do not try to judge your attitude or altitude by looking straight ahead because you will get different perspectives depending on the width of the runway and the topography of the airfield.

Sounds like he never learned to use his peripheral vision very well. 'Course, what do you expect from a Citabria pilot.

The technique is very different from the full stall 3 point and a combination of the two is not recommended in the Citabria. The pattern should be flown at the same speeds. The main difference is that the aircraft is kept at a low angle of attack and flown parallel to the surface of the runway with power on to minimize the sink rate.

Not necessary.

Remember to keep the nose DOWN when slipping the Citabria! Don’t risk a stall.

Because I bet he thinks you'll spin.

[Wheel landing] is not good technique for crosswinds as you must use the “crab” technique rather than wing down, so if the crosswind component is too great you will tend to “fly” off the runway.

Ya hear, never wheel land in x-winds.

Wheel landings are for Ex-Air Force pilots who don’t know any better, pilots with uncorrected myopia or for landing on long runways (10,000 ft.)

Well, that's kinda funny...and meant to be.

He comes across as an intelligent guy, but a low time tailwheel guy with no experience in other planes, who combines strong opinions with the feeling that he's achieved quite a level of instructional and piloting skill with a few hours in a Citabria. He's just a guy with an internet connection.

 

[Foxhole]

He does have a nice site and it says he is an expert in many things.

 

[denverpilot]

Does he have a newsletter? Ooh. Ooh. Newsletters are the sign of true modern expertise!

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I still think "no brakes" is good advice for beginners, but he does harp on it too much, and there's no mention of when and how they could be used safely once one gets the hang of taxiing and landing properly. His assertion that they offer less control than the rudder is not quite right, either...especially at very low speeds.Overall, he sounds a bit too proud that he's landed a Citabria without bending it. And I also don't get the thing about xwind landings.

My guess is that he learned from someone who only flew something with crappy, grabby, cable actuated heel brakes. Those are best left untouched due to the likelihood of getting a real uneven application and the possibility of a brake "grab". But, that is not a tailwheel issue - that is a crappy brake issue.

I'm pretty sure the Citabria has tolerable brakes, but obviously this instructor never moved on from whatever incomplete information was given "back then".

I was standing pretty hard on mine yesterday because I was doing stop-and-goes and wanted to minimize the time on the runway (I'm usually the slowest guy in the pattern - wasting time on the runway doesn't make it any easier on anyone else. But yesterday I was second slowest - the Goodyear Blimp flew a slower final than I did.)

Oh - and I did one wheelie along with the two three points - even though I didn't have 10,000 feet of runway (and was doing stop-and-goes).

He comes across as an intelligent guy, but a low time tailwheel guy with no experience in other planes, who combines strong opinions with the feeling that he's achieved quite a level of instructional and piloting skill with a few hours in a Citabria. He's just a guy with an internet connection.

Who, apparently, is giving out tailwheel endorsements and telling his instructors how to do it?

 

[dmccormack]

I keep a blog -- but don't dispense ignorance (as much as I can help it )

While I'm a "Avoid using brakes" guy because my heel brakes are old and very expensive, how in the world do you learn how to use brakes in an emergency if that's the only time you use them?

CAUTION! The brakes should always be used alternatively and never applied simultaneously except to nose over the airplane in the event an EMERGENCY STOP is necessary.

FWIW, my "emergency stop" technique is an intentional ground loop, not an intentional nose-over.

Remember to keep the nose DOWN when slipping the Citabria! Don’t risk a stall.

Oh boy......

 

[ebetancourt]

Obviously he doesn't know that some Citabrias have flaps (7GCBC), can't do reasonable wheel landings, and has no concept of AOA. Other than that...

Maybe he is an expert at quantum physics or something. Not flying a Citabria

 

[ebetancourt]

Oops, or understanding slips. If I am slipping to lose airspeed keep the nose DOWN?

 

[dmccormack]

Oops, or understanding slips. If I am slipping to lose airspeed keep the nose DOWN?

My technique:

• Pull up to slow (close to stall, but not quite)
• Drop wing, counter with rudder (usually left, unless landing in x-wind)
• Descend lots without speed increase

 

[rottydaddy]

I keep a blog -- but don't dispense ignorance (as much as I can help it



FWIW, my "emergency stop" technique is an intentional ground loop, not an intentional nose-over.

That's another odd thing: when would it ever be best to nose over?! I'm with you- if there's unavoidable danger ahead, I'd prefer to have a wingtip or the empennage get there first, with the plane upright.

This article is just a string of tongue-in-cheek axioms, like "brakes are for parking" or "There are those who have and those who will"... some truth to them, but not the whole truth.

 

[rottydaddy]

My technique:

• Pull up to slow (close to stall, but not quite)
• Drop wing, counter with rudder (usually left, unless landing in x-wind)
• Descend lots without speed increase

Yes, that's about it. I was taught to not let the nose get too high, but really only because half the point of a fwd slip is to avoid gliding with the nose high in front of you, as you would if you wanted to get the same glide angle as you do with a good fwd slip (and no flaps obvioisly). Much better view forward.
And while a spin from a slip is not likely, if you're already damn slow and descending steeply in a slip, increasing A of A to slow down even more shouldn't be necessary, and could make it harder to keep a safe , easily-controlled sink rate if the wing actually starts to stall.

 

[dmccormack]

Yes, that's about it. I was taught to not let the nose get too high, but really only because half the point of a fwd slip is to avoid gliding with the nose high in front of you, as you would if you wanted to get the same glide angle as you do with a good fwd slip (and no flaps obvioisly). Much better view forward.
And while a spin from a slip is not likely, if you're already damn slow and descending steeply in a slip, increasing A of A to slow down even more shouldn't be necessary, and could make it harder to keep a safe , easily-controlled sink rate if the wing actually starts to stall.

You're Alright -- even if you're from Jersey.

:wink2:


I find that once I slow up and drop the wing, the nose comes down. I really would have to yank back to keep the airplane in a stall attitude.

 

[brcase]

My technique:

• Pull up to slow (close to stall, but not quite)
• Drop wing, counter with rudder (usually left, unless landing in x-wind)
• Descend lots without speed increase

OK, I may have a bit of an issue with #1 especially when I tend to work with low time students and pilots. So here are some random thoughts on it.

"Pull up to slow (close to stall, but not quite)" could also be written as "reduce the drag to a minimum" Not quite true since you probably below the best L/D Speed.

But essentially you are high so you are going to slip, so you slow down to make the slip as ineffective as possible.

Slowing down will reduce your forward speed which does work well if you have some headwind.

But you are going present the side of the airplane to the airflow to create drag and we all remember from our basic aerodynamics that drag goes up with the square of the speed, so adding a little speed adds a lot of drag.

I also have some concerns about airplanes that don't have balanced static systems were the Airspeed indicators will read inaccurately in the slip.

As a result I teach a slight increase in speed is probably good in the slip. You do have to plan for this and aim a bit short of your touch down spot as you may be a bit fast as you come out of the slip.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[dmccormack]

OK, I may have a bit of an issue with #1 especially when I tend to work with low time students and pilots. So here are some random thoughts on it.

"Pull up to slow (close to stall, but not quite)" could also be written as "reduce the drag to a minimum" Not quite true since you probably below the best L/D Speed.

But essentially you are high so you are going to slip, so you slow down to make the slip as ineffective as possible.

Slowing down will reduce your forward speed which does work well if you have some headwind.

{snip}

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

I'm pulling up since I want to slow to lowest possible speed before resorting to a slip (if it's one I need due to inadequate planning. Most of my slips are constant turns from downwind).

Once I've established the slip, the nose comes down automatically (as I mentioned) and speed builds but I really don't care. The amazingly effective rudder coupled with an already-draggy airframe results in an astounding descent rate -- with nowhere near the speed increase you might get in a Bonanza or other slippery single.

I concur that this isn't normal primary dual stuff -- but I'm describing how I fly an airplane I own and fly fairly frequently.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I'm a 150 something hour pilot with only about 110 hours tailwheel. I did not read the entire article closely after reading the first part of it, because even as a rookie it appeared as a lot of misinformation.

I sure am glad my old school instructor taught me to use the brakes for all sorts of things under all sorts of conditions. I don't use them very much, but I'm comfortable in using them under all sorts of situations.

What if a TW pilot were to strictly follow the advice in the article and get into a situation where a little brake on one side or the other could prevent a ground loop? Are they supposed to be so afraid of the brakes that they refuse to use them to prevent bad things from happening?