Solo XC Limitations?

[MDeitch1976]

All I have left of my required hours is 2.4 hours of XC.
My question is, what are the limitations of a XC, if any? For example, can I be endorsed to fly to a "fly in", stay overnight, and head back the next day? Maybe the limitations are only imposed by the CFI?

I understand the instructor may have a concern over whether the weather(yes, both in one sentence) will be VFR and within my limitations on the return trip, and will the student make the right judgement call?

Maybe, some of you have stories of an atypical solo journey?

 

[denverpilot]

I had to land for weather on one of mine, and it got dark.

The endorsement said to make the flight, not which day to make it, so the CFI on the phone said to finish up the next morning.

It all depends on the endorsement given. It can be as open (within the law) or as detailed as the CFI wishes to make it.

 

[MAKG1]

It's actually a bit gray. The CFI is certifying that he has reviewed your planning and found it adequate. If you take that literally, it's impossible more than six hours out. You can't get a standard briefing.

14 CFR 61.93(c)(2)(ii)(B)
14 CFR 61.93(d)(2)

 

[MDeitch1976]

I had to land for weather on one of mine, and it got dark.

The endorsement said to make the flight, not which day to make it, so the CFI on the phone said to finish up the next morning.

It all depends on the endorsement given. It can be as open (within the law) or as detailed as the CFI wishes to make it.

Thank You.
Were you entertaining the Windwood Fly In? Might not be any rooms left for me, but it is only 106 NM away. Could possibly make for an interesting solo. Of course, there is always the possibility of staying for a couple hours, and heading home the same day.

 

[MAKG1]

I would discourage going to a fly-in as a student solo. They tend to be a bit more chaotic than other flights, due to abnormally high traffic, temporary towers, perhaps TFRs, etc. Enough unexpected **** happens that you really shouldn't be adding extras.

You'll have plenty of time to do that sort of thing after you get your private.

 

[bflynn]

What they said. This is training time, not play time. Go do it, get done and get back so you can do your check ride. Then do overnights to your heart's content.

 

[MDeitch1976]

I would discourage going to a fly-in as a student solo. They tend to be a bit more chaotic than other flights, due to abnormally high traffic, temporary towers, perhaps TFRs, etc. Enough unexpected **** happens that you really shouldn't be adding extras.

You'll have plenty of time to do that sort of thing after you get your private.

This is a POA Fly In. It is a little Fly In Resort. Probably no more planes than the number of POA people who fly in. My first real "fly in" will definitely include either another pilot who has been there done that, or bring a willing instructor along.

As per your previous post, you bring up a good point with the instructor being unable to review my flight planning. A couple of hours hanging out would probably be OK.

 

[Mafoo]

Not sure what the rules are, but I asked my CFI the same question. Can I just stop durring my XC and get lunch was my question.

He preferred I didn't, because he didn't want any issues with the preflight or starting the aircraft while at a remote airport.

 

[ChrisK]

I'm not an authorized Board Rule Maven (tm) but I like to dabble.

IAW FAR Part 61 Sec 61.93(b)2, you can be endorsed for repeated solo cross country flights to SPECIFIC airports within 50nm. I had one of these endorsements when I was close to finishing.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR.nsf/0/73FC6D62ACB68BB4862576C400578BD7?OpenDocument

(b) Authorization to perform certain solo flights and cross-country flights. A student pilot must obtain an endorsement from an authorized instructor to make solo flights from the airport where the student pilot normally receives training to another location. A student pilot who receives this endorsement must comply with the requirements of this paragraph.
(2) Repeated specific solo cross-country flights may be made to another airport that is within 50 nautical miles of the airport from which the flight originated, provided--
(i) The authorized instructor has given the student flight training in both directions over the route, including entering and exiting the traffic patterns, takeoffs, and landings at the airports to be used;
(ii) The authorized instructor who gave the training has endorsed the student's logbook certifying that the student is proficient to make such flights;
(iii) The student has current solo flight endorsements in accordance with Sec. 61.87 of this part; and
(iv) The student has current solo cross-country flight endorsements in accordance with paragraph (c) of this section; however, for repeated solo cross-country flights to another airport within 50 nautical miles from which the flight originated, separate endorsements are not required to be made for each flight.

This wouldn't cover you for Windwood, since the distance is >50nm; however, if there was someplace within 50nm you'd like to periodically go to, talk it over with your CFI. With this endorsement, there would be no problem with the regulation for an overnight as far as I can tell.

 

[ChrisK]

Not sure what the rules are, but I asked my CFI the same question. Can I just stop durring my XC and get lunch was my question.

He preferred I didn't, because he didn't want any issues with the preflight or starting the aircraft while at a remote airport.

Incidentally, I got a separate signoff for lunch from my CFI during my long XC. I decided not to use it, but it was a nice option to have He told me to get logbook endorsements when I stopped. I did 3 solo XCs and misunderstood what he said / meant, so I got endorsements at every stop. Before the last XC I mentioned this to him and he kinda stared at me. "I only wanted you to get endorsements at the far stop," he said.

D'oh.

 

[dell30rb]

I think you need an endorsement in your log book the day of the flight. So flying back the next day might be an issue. Hanging out for a few hours should be okay though.

I'm thinking the POA fly in will be low traffic. I did have one hell of an experience with a fly in two weekends ago though, they can be a zoo. Think six airplanes in the pattern, four not talking because the EAA set up a 'control tower' on a different frequency than the CTAF and not everyone got the memo.

 

[poadeleted20]

My question is, what are the limitations of a XC, if any? For example, can I be endorsed to fly to a "fly in", stay overnight, and head back the next day?

No. The FAA is on record as saying the flight planning endorsement is good only for the day it's given, and the NTSB supports that.

Maybe the limitations are only imposed by the CFI?

On this matter, the CFI is not given that much latitude. The only way to do this is to have another CFI on the other end on the next day to review your new planning and that new day's weather reports and sign a new endorsement that new day for the return trip. See Administrator v. Blair for the law on point.
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/4253.pdf

 

[poadeleted20]

I had to land for weather on one of mine, and it got dark.

The endorsement said to make the flight, not which day to make it, so the CFI on the phone said to finish up the next morning.

It all depends on the endorsement given. It can be as open (within the law) or as detailed as the CFI wishes to make it.

Good thing nothing went wrong on the way home, or your instructor would have been in trouble -- see Administrator v. Blair, cited above.

 

[TMetzinger]

Yes, or have your original CFI review your planning via telephone and fax you an endorsement.

You could have a local CFI do it, but if you're a renter many outfits only permit "their" CFIs to endorse you while you're flying one of their planes.

 

[poadeleted20]

It's actually a bit gray.

Not the way the case I cited reads.

The CFI is certifying that he has reviewed your planning and found it adequate. If you take that literally, it's impossible more than six hours out. You can't get a standard briefing.

The established standard in that case is "same day." Back when the PP long XC was 300 nm, six hours from the time of the forecast would never have been enough.

 

[poadeleted20]

Not sure what the rules are, but I asked my CFI the same question. Can I just stop durring my XC and get lunch was my question.

He preferred I didn't, because he didn't want any issues with the preflight or starting the aircraft while at a remote airport.

That limitation is the instructor's prerogative, not an FAA rule. Back in the old 300nm days, you couldn't complete the long XC in a C-150 or the like without stopping for fuel, and you'd probably be hypoglycemic going that long without eating.

 

[poadeleted20]

Incidentally, I got a separate signoff for lunch from my CFI during my long XC. I decided not to use it, but it was a nice option to have He told me to get logbook endorsements when I stopped. I did 3 solo XCs and misunderstood what he said / meant, so I got endorsements at every stop. Before the last XC I mentioned this to him and he kinda stared at me. "I only wanted you to get endorsements at the far stop," he said.

The signing of a Student Pilot's logbook at each stop on an XC flight as evidence of having made it there is merely tradition, not regulation, and was never an "endorsement;" you could get it from anyone who happened to be there.

 

[ChrisK]

The signing of a Student Pilot's logbook at each stop on an XC flight as evidence of having made it there is merely tradition, not regulation, and was never an "endorsement;" you could get it from anyone who happened to be there.

Righto. I misspoke. And yes I got them from the first person I saw - line worker, pilot, FBO, guy walking around aimlessly...

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes, or have your original CFI review your planning via telephone and fax you an endorsement.

There is nothing I know of which says or even suggests a faxed endorsement after a telephonic review is acceptable. Nothing says it isn't legal, either, so you may get that from some CFI's, but not me.

 

[TMetzinger]

I'm aware of CFIs who've done it, but of course what you do with your signature is your prerogative. I'd have no qualms about printing out an endorsement on a label, faxing it, and then sticking it the student's logbook when he returned.

 

[RV10flyer]

No fly-ins during training should be what your CFI says.

I have had two close calls at two different fly-ins this summer alone. I had 190 hrs before my first close encounter at my first fly-in. Both were not on frequency or not talking and not using landing lights. I bet the Cessna heard my exhaust as I went around when they pulled out with me on a 300' short final.

Note: I had 8 each Mark I eyeballs scanning.

 

[denverpilot]

It's actually a bit gray. The CFI is certifying that he has reviewed your planning and found it adequate. If you take that literally, it's impossible more than six hours out. You can't get a standard briefing.

14 CFR 61.93(c)(2)(ii)(B)
14 CFR 61.93(d)(2)

I believe the next morning the call went something like this...

"Okay, I'm leaving GXY now."

"Did you call FSS?"

"Yes, no problems today."

"File a flight plan?"

"Yes."

"See you in an hour."

Certainly any CFI with a brain can handle a remote review of weather in today's world.

We didn't even have the Internet back then.

 

[DaleB]

Not sure what the rules are, but I asked my CFI the same question. Can I just stop durring my XC and get lunch was my question.

He preferred I didn't, because he didn't want any issues with the preflight or starting the aircraft while at a remote airport.

Odd. Mine wanted me to stop at the distant points. I stopped at the first one just to de-shake. It was my first time ever flying solo into an unfamiliar airport, it had a tower (Class D) and I'd had a minor mis-communication with the controller on the way in, then bounced the landing.

The plan was to stop & go at airport #1, refuel at airport #2, then stop and have dinner with my in-laws at #3 before heading home. I ended up waiting out some passing weather at #2, then altered my flight plan because the weather was directly in my path -- so it was a stop & go at a different third airport, then boogie home to land legally since I had no solo night landing endorsement (never occurred to either of us).

That trip was also my first encounter with rain, and my first encounter with an updraft. Pretty interesting stuff.

 

[denverpilot]

Finished catching up on the thread...

Good thing nothing went wrong on the way home, or your instructor would have been in trouble -- see Administrator v. Blair, cited above.

Happened two years before the Administrator wrote that poppycock into history thanks to one CFI with incredibly crappy judgement, apparently.

So are long-term solo in the pattern endorsements no longer commonplace either?

I had one. Cleared to solo below X knots of wind and Y knots of crosswind at XYZ airport. Anytime I felt like going.

Unwritten rule was that I would call FSS and get my own briefing. And I'd let the CFI know how it went.

Of course, we had a local FSS and you might actually know the briefer by name back then, too. And they knew what "student pilot" meant... if they screwed up that briefing, they might be reading about a hometown kid in the newspaper the next day.

I see a hint at something else, I guess I'll have to go look up, even though it doesn't affect me in the slightest now... Ron said something about 300 nm. When did that go away? (I don't have a historical perspective on that one, but I seem to recall my XC needing to be that long.)

Sorry kids, my advice was bad. Follow the Great Administrator into the Wonderful World of modern regulations. My bad.

I note that this case was brought for someone's estate, meaning that ultimately it was pushed for money. The dead CFI probably didn't care.

Or worse, died waiting on the NTSB. Which was it?

I also see the wrangling of the estate lawyer trying to make more money with EAJA.

It was all about money, as usual.

Did the student die?

 

[poadeleted20]

I believe the next morning the call went something like this...

"Okay, I'm leaving GXY now."

"Did you call FSS?"

"Yes, no problems today."

"File a flight plan?"

"Yes."

"See you in an hour."

Certainly any CFI with a brain can handle a remote review of weather in today's world.

We didn't even have the Internet back then.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not worth my CFI ticket to guess. Until the FAA says remote review/endorsement is acceptable, I'll pass. Also, if your situation had gone before the FAA and that had been the extent of your instructor's review of your flight planning, they would have ripped him apart, even if it had been in person.

 

[Mafoo]

Odd. Mine wanted me to stop at the distant points. I stopped at the first one just to de-shake. It was my first time ever flying solo into an unfamiliar airport, it had a tower (Class D) and I'd had a minor mis-communication with the controller on the way in, then bounced the landing.

The plan was to stop & go at airport #1, refuel at airport #2, then stop and have dinner with my in-laws at #3 before heading home. I ended up waiting out some passing weather at #2, then altered my flight plan because the weather was directly in my path -- so it was a stop & go at a different third airport, then boogie home to land legally since I had no solo night landing endorsement (never occurred to either of us).

That trip was also my first encounter with rain, and my first encounter with an updraft. Pretty interesting stuff.

Sounds like I am not alone in my "it's the first time flying away... now what?" moment.

If everything goes well Friday, I might have my own airplane to take, so I can stop whenever I want.

If it breaks down, I call the wife to come pick me up. When I rent, I call my CFI to come get me... why he cares

 

[DaleB]

Sounds like I am not alone in my "it's the first time flying away... now what?" moment.

Not by along shot!!

 

[denverpilot]

Maybe, maybe not. It's not worth my CFI ticket to guess. Until the FAA says remote review/endorsement is acceptable, I'll pass. Also, if your situation had gone before the FAA and that had been the extent of your instructor's review of your flight planning, they would have ripped him apart, even if it had been in person.

You probably don't realize the final destination was 32 nm away at KEIK (which wasn't EIK back then).

Pretty sure if one of us climbed a big hill we could have seen each other. CAVU would have been an understatement the next morning.

The thunderstorm line popped between Platteville and EIK the prior afternoon and ran from Boulder, through that area and on out to the East along I-76.

Just wasn't any safe way to get around it and into EIK before sundown.

If I'd have gotten back in one hour sooner... Oh well. Great weather lesson.

The Bravo was also still a TCA then too, I believe. Hmm, wait... Stapleton was still open too. It didn't close until 1995.

Hmm. I was curious what year the U.S. switched to the ICAO lettered airspace designations, and Googled but can't find it. Dang it.

Dammit. Feeling old now. Ha.

 

[MDeitch1976]

I didn't have anyone sign anything when I did my long XC. Does this mean my long xc is no good?
Gulp!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[poadeleted20]

I didn't have anyone sign anything when I did my long XC. Does this mean my long xc is no good?

Are you speaking about having someone at each airport sign your log as proof of having been there? If so, it doesn't matter -- it's only a tradition, not a regulation. Your signature on the page attests to the accuracy of all entries on the page, so it counts just fine.

OTOH, if you're speaking of the 61.93(c)(2)(ii) flight planning/weather review endorsement for the whole flight signed by your instructor before you depart your home 'drome on an XC flight of that length, then the XC counts, but your log is evidence of a serious violation of the regulations. I sincerely hope that isn't the case.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Are you speaking about having someone at each airport sign your log as proof of having been there? If so, it doesn't matter -- it's only a tradition, not a regulation. Your signature on the page attests to the accuracy of all entries on the page, so it counts just fine.

OTOH, if you're speaking of the 61.93(c)(2)(ii) flight planning/weather review endorsement for the whole flight signed by your instructor before you depart your home 'drome on an XC flight of that length, then the XC counts, but your log is evidence of a serious violation of the regulations. I sincerely hope that isn't the case.

I was speaking of the proof of being at the airports on my XC. Thank god!

I do have the endorsement from the instructor showing the review of my XC Flight plan and weather brief.