Socal Flight School: FUL or LGB?

[flyingmachine]

Thinking about finally starting my PPL training in a few months. Going to start checking out schools near by. The two airports I'm considering are Fullerton and Long Beach. Are there advantages or disadvantages to training at either? Long Beach is a much larger airport than Fullerton. If you have recommendations on a particular school please share as well. Thanks,

 

[Old Fart]

Was into both airports yesterday, flew TOA-LGB-FUL-TOA

I know LGB has a pretty active set of schools, not too sure about FUL.

I'm learning out of TOA

 

[flyingmachine]

Thanks Jeff, actually Torrance is an option. Only slightly further than the other two for me as I'm in Cerritos. Would you think LGB would be more of a challenge for beginner pilots due to the volume of traffic or would that be useful during training?

 

[Old Fart]

I'm right around the corner in Lakewood

LGB is nice if for no other reason than you WILL be practicing at a busier airport (get to wait for jets, occasionally jets wait for YOU ), plus can do both left and right pattern work easy. FUL is a shorter runway, IMHO a bit "tighter" approach. I picked TOA when I still lived in Torrance, really like the airport - and can't say enough about my CFI. I wanted to learn on a low wing, VERY happy with my instruction to date (down to solo XC's and some misc work)

 

[Pilawt]

I learned to fly at FUL in the 60s. By the time I soloed I was comfortable with short fields, obstacles, crosswinds, and finding the runway looking into the setting sun with (optimistically) three mile visibility. :wink2:

Later I instructed at LGB. Those long, wide runways don't pose much of a challenge and I'd have to take students elsewhere to get accustomed to more normal-sized runways.

 

[Fearless Tower]

If you are thinking about Fullerton I'd highly recommend Daniel Wotring. Outstanding instructor.
Aviatorflighttraining.com

 

[flyingmachine]

Thanks for the replies, I'm going to look for a school at FUL. A friend of mine actually got his PPL there a few years ago. He recommends Daniel as well, but only for advance training, he thinks he is too hard to track down and schedule for the basic stuff.

 

[bobmrg]

My .02, from a different part of the country. I began my instructing career at a small, uncontrolled airport...you could call it sleepy. At the same time, I was getting my CFII and ATP at Boeing Field. After a year or so, the siren song of big iron (Navajo! Twin Comanche!) lured me to BFI to instruct at a major flight school.

I found that my Boeing students were comfortable going into smaller fields, including my old home base, but that my country students were scared spitless of Boeing Field. There's a lesson there: Train at LGB because of the traffic.

Bob Gardner

 

[jesse]

My .02, from a different part of the country. I began my instructing career at a small, uncontrolled airport...you could call it sleepy. At the same time, I was getting my CFII and ATP at Boeing Field. After a year or so, the siren song of big iron (Navajo! Twin Comanche!) lured me to BFI to instruct at a major flight school.

I found that my Boeing students were comfortable going into smaller fields, including my old home base, but that my country students were scared spitless of Boeing Field. There's a lesson there: Train at LGB because of the traffic.

Bob Gardner

I'm with Bob. Of course I don't know the airports in question, but in general, I favor training where it's busy versus where it's sleepy.

 

[Pilawt]

Fullerton may be small, but it's anything but sleepy. No jets, but it has a tower and it can get very busy.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Thanks for the replies, I'm going to look for a school at FUL. A friend of mine actually got his PPL there a few years ago. He recommends Daniel as well, but only for advance training, he thinks he is too hard to track down and schedule for the basic stuff.

Probably true. He has a lot of irons in the fire these days. Much more than when I first met him. But if you get a chance to so some tailwheel stuff if highly recommend him.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

Having spent several years instructing out of Long Beach, I'd go with it over the other Torrance and Fullerton.

Since Fullerton is further inland, you'll spend more time transitioning to the practice area. The Disney TFR can be a factor too.

I think there are more choices of rentals in LGB than TOA.

I'd look into these guys at LGB: http://aceshighaviation.com/instructors
The planes were clean and well maintained.

Talk to Erik. He can set you up or recommend another instructor there.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

There are plenty of good instructors/clubs/FBO choices at FUL. I'm a bit partial to AFI, but the are other solid options. I flew out of LGB for several years, including getting my Instrument and Commercial there (Long Beach Flying Club and a Part 61 instructor, not the 141 school there), but moved to Fullerton and have since been a co-owner of a 182 at FUL for almost 10 years.

- Fullerton will be more efficient for your training. You will rarely need to wait more than a minute or two to depart. Taxi times will be less too.

- You'll get good at crosswind landings, at least from the left...

- You'll be more comfortable flying into smaller/narrower fields. The runways at LGB are huge.

- If you want to experience busy, practicing at LGB is a 4 minute flight away. I recommend it for some of your hours, but constant exposure isn't needed. Learning to taxi at night at Long Beach is a great experience.

-The difference in time to transit to the practice areas is negligible, and if LGB or the off shore area are clouded up, FUL will clear to VFR earlier and you can head east to practice.

- The Disney TFR is a non-issue. It is easy to avoid, and even easier to fly through while talking to the controllers - though there isn't typically a "need" to be in that airspace VFR.

Send me a PM, I'll be happy to introduce you to folks at FUL. We have a very active pilots association too, with monthly safety meetings at AFI (usually 3rd Tuesday of the month, 7 pm at AFI).

Jeff

 

[MAKG1]

Thanks Jeff, actually Torrance is an option. Only slightly further than the other two for me as I'm in Cerritos. Would you think LGB would be more of a challenge for beginner pilots due to the volume of traffic or would that be useful during training?

Yes. It is both more of a challenge and more useful.

I was at LGB this weekend. It looks like a fabulous place for flight training. The jets don't use the same runway; they use the diagonal.

And it wasn't THAT busy, even considering it was Memorial Day weekend. I suspect VNY would be worse.

I stopped by TOA Monday, and transient parking was PACKED, but the runway wasn't all that busy.

The traffic isn't so much the concern as the proximity of good practice areas.

 

[Unit74]

Having learned inside class c and B airspace, I would say LGB for sure. You will be a much better pilot in the long run. I talk to local guys here who have never had the opportunity or skills to interact with a controller or manage being vectored well. When I talk about flying through LAX to SBA and then back to SAN they call me insane. I say it's just another day flying in SoCal.

So I say make it as hard as possible. You will thank yourself layer.

 

[comanchepilot]

Thanks Jeff, actually Torrance is an option. Only slightly further than the other two for me as I'm in Cerritos. Would you think LGB would be more of a challenge for beginner pilots due to the volume of traffic or would that be useful during training?

which one is easier to get to and from in traffic?

 

[Jeff Oslick]

You guys do know that Long Beach is still (for now anyway) a Class D, just like FUL, right? Both underlie Class B. You can get the same procedural experience of getting a VFR departure squawk at FUL as you get at LGB. LGB can be busier, and you'll have to pay attention to wake turbulence from the jets (especially where you land on 25L).

At FUL you need to be alert for of helicopters/rotor wash, with Anaheim PD, CHP, OC Fire and MedFlight all based on field.

And our controllers are more friendly than LGB controllers...so there <jk>. (Well, sort of jk, we do have great controllers.)

 

[Jeff Oslick]

which one is easier to get to and from in traffic?

Cerritos is pretty much right in between LGB and FUL. If the freeways are bunged up, he could take side streets, it's close enough. If he works closer to one than the other though, and plans on after-work flying that could be a consideration.

 

[jpower]

I'm with Bob. Of course I don't know the airports in question, but in general, I favor training where it's busy versus where it's sleepy.

Or both, ideally. I trained at a moderately busy untowered airport, Bay Bridge Airport W29, on the Eastern Shore of MD. We had a 2800 ft runway which was enough for singles, twins, and a few Pilatuses (...Pilati?), but we were a 10 minute flight from a pretty busy Class D and not far from Baltimore's Class B. We also got the good experience of the SFRA right near by, which is good experience to get better on the radio. Best of both worlds, I think.

 

[comanchepilot]

Cerritos is pretty much right in between LGB and FUL. If the freeways are bunged up, he could take side streets, it's close enough. If he works closer to one than the other though, and plans on after-work flying that could be a consideration.

The key is which is easier to get to most of the time - I like that I can bike to my hangar too . . . . it is 7.0 miles from garage door to hangar door.

 

[nauga]

Jeez, I learned to fly out of Meadowlark (L16), a tiny little uncontrolled gravel, grass, and pothole strip in Huntington Beach that's gone 'cause southern CA needed another strip mall. Probably spent half of my pattern time at LGB dodging TWA MD80's. It's not like you're not going to be exposed to the other fields, they're like 5 minutes apart. Plenty of opportunities to experience a wide variety of airspace too, for the same reason. The suggestion to pick one close to the practice area is a good one, and LGB or TOA fit that. Pick the operator and the instructor you like and the rest will work out.

Nauga,
on extended downwind for LGB somewhere over Costa Mesa

 

[Richard]

I learned at a busy Class C. Taxi times were usually .3 Hobbs. Congestion at the run-up pad plus waiting for landing traffic, including fast movers making T&Gs, often meant up to 30 minutes between engine start and wheels up. However, mixing it up with diverse types demanded finely honed skill level. At the basic level how well the student does is up to the student personality.


I've flown into and out of both FUL and LGB numerous times. As Jeff Oslick points out, both are Class Ds. A few months ago I did a check out at FUL. It took only a couple minutes to get to the practice area over the Long Beach breakwater which I found an acceptable amount of time. Along the way I was handed off to Los Alamitos. I'm thinking this short transition time might allow for a pace which is more comfortable to the student pilot. Another thing about this is from FUL we weren't on any of the busy corridors like if out of LGB. We did cross those corridors but were above them by the time of crossing.

I think the best value is out of FUL. LGB is only a few miles distant if you want the big airport feel. At FUL there is also the FunOutside flight school.

 

[vdehart]

I completed my flight training at KLGB and have also trained at TOA and FUL. The only downside as previously mentioned is that transitioning to a 40' wide runway from the huge 150' runways at LGB will definitely be tough. I can put you in touch with a good instructor and affordable flight school in the area if you are interested.

Be careful out there in the practice area. That entire area is a midair collision waiting to happen...

LGB also has some of the lowest rental rates in the area but TOA is probably closest to the practice area if you take a right 270 departure directly over Palos Verdes and you will definitely spend less time holding short than LGB.

Cessna 152 rents at KLGB for $81 wet and PA28-161 Warrior for $107 now at Long Beach Flying Club. http://lbflying.com/prices.html

You could always consider the Sling Flying Club in Torrance which rents its beautiful fully equipped LSA for $120 wet. http://flyingclub.aero

Good luck!

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Be careful out there in the practice area. That entire area is a midair collision waiting to happen...

No, it is a midair that has already happened. Long Beach Flying Club lost a couple plane and 4 souls one horrible day about 10 years or so ago. That accident is why we now have published frequencies for air-to-air comm in the practice areas throughout the LA Basin.

There is a small practice area close to FUL, just to the north. Personally, I prefer to practice near Lake Matthews rather than the off-shore area.

Jeff

 

[vdehart]

No, it is a midair that has already happened. Long Beach Flying Club lost a couple plane and 4 souls one horrible day about 10 years or so ago. That accident is why we now have published frequencies for air-to-air comm in the practice areas throughout the LA Basin.

There is a small practice area close to FUL, just to the north. Personally, I prefer to practice near Lake Matthews rather than the off-shore area.

Jeff

The air to air comm is helpful but I have still had two near collisions with people who were transitioning the area off frequency. And by near collision, I mean CLOSE -_-

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20010228X00524&ntsbno=LAX01FA101B&akey=2

 

[Jeff Oslick]

The air to air comm is helpful but I have still had two near collisions with people who were transitioning the area off frequency. And by near collision, I mean CLOSE -_-

Just two? I lost track of my #. A really bad spot is just north of/above LGB Class D along the 91 Freeway. Had to write up a ASRS report because I thought I might have nicked the Class D when I had to do an evasive maneuver.

It would be interesting to construct a scale 3D model of what LA airspace actually looks like. So many artificial tunnels and cliffs....

 

[vdehart]

Just two? I lost track of my #. A really bad spot is just north of/above LGB Class D along the 91 Freeway. Had to write up a ASRS report because I thought I might have nicked the Class D when I had to do an evasive maneuver.

It would be interesting to construct a scale 3D model of what LA airspace actually looks like. So many artificial tunnels and cliffs....

Ah yes, that is a bad area. Essentially, everybody VFR is squeezing under Bravo and over the LGB, Los Alamitos and FUL airspace on an east or west flight path. I am generally on flight following for this very reason if I am tracking the 91, but I imagine if you are instructing out of FUL and transitioning to/from the practice area FF would be impractical for such a short hop.

 

[comanchepilot]

I just wish the people in the practice areas in LA would:

1. Stay out of the clouds VFR
2. Stay within the prescribed altitudes
3. Pay frickin' attention.
4. Both transmit AND listen on the prescribed frequency.
5. Did I mention stay out of the clouds when not on an IFR flight plan?

 

[flyingmachine]

thanks for all the input. I still have a few months till my work schedule clears up enough to allow for a couple of month of regular flights during the week and weekends. I've gotten a few nice recommendations via PM, and I will try to "interview" the suggested schools. Both FUL and LGB are almost exactly 20 mins door to door w/ or w/out traffic from my house, so either would work.

 

[Henning]

Thinking about finally starting my PPL training in a few months. Going to start checking out schools near by. The two airports I'm considering are Fullerton and Long Beach. Are there advantages or disadvantages to training at either? Long Beach is a much larger airport than Fullerton. If you have recommendations on a particular school please share as well. Thanks,

Don't know the current status, but Long Beach Flying Club used to be one of the best deals in the region.

 

[Henning]

Thanks Jeff, actually Torrance is an option. Only slightly further than the other two for me as I'm in Cerritos. Would you think LGB would be more of a challenge for beginner pilots due to the volume of traffic or would that be useful during training?

I learned at LGB back when it was actually busy, managed to finish my PPL in 40hrs without sitting on the ground much.

 

[Henning]

Or both, ideally. I trained at a moderately busy untowered airport, Bay Bridge Airport W29, on the Eastern Shore of MD. We had a 2800 ft runway which was enough for singles, twins, and a few Pilatuses (...Pilati?), but we were a 10 minute flight from a pretty busy Class D and not far from Baltimore's Class B. We also got the good experience of the SFRA right near by, which is good experience to get better on the radio. Best of both worlds, I think.

From LGB it's just a couple minute hop to Compton with parallel smaller runways at an uncontrolled field which worked out well for pattern work... except that time during the Rodney King riots when we took a bullet in the wing.

 

[Pilawt]

I remember as a post-solo student (circa 1967) being #13 on the downwind for runway 24 at Fullerton.

I remember being told by the tower to extend downwind to St. Jude's Hospital. That's three miles from the airport. Sometimes that happened on smoggy days when visibility was reported (wink-wink) by the tower as three miles. Turning final into the setting sun for runway 24, you certainly couldn't see three miles. In those pre-GPS and pre-localizer days, navigating back to the airport on final was one part faith and one part local knowledge. Even in those days the airport was difficult to pick out among the maze of warehouses and light industrial buildings.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

For better or worse, FUL just isn't that busy anymore. About the most you'll ever see is 4 or maybe 5 in the pattern. The air quality has also improved a lot since the old days. Excepting times with forest fires in the basin, the hazy/smoggy days are pretty rare now.

Even just 15 years ago, you'd take off from LGB and see a wall of brown a few thousand feet thick over LA County, with Orange County generally much clearer. That brown is more of a light tan now.

Jeff

 

[Richard]

We moved to CA from HI in 1974. On the first day all of us had burning eyes and esophagus and it burned to take a breath. Fortunately we were only to pick up the car to travel across the country. It's not that bad these days but even recently I have been mighty reluctant to descend into the yuck. A couple times I even thought to divert somewhere not SoCal.

OTOH, there are CAVU days of 60 nm or better vis and it's not just winter.

That practice area 'round about Lake Matthews has nearly done me in many times. The practice area can be so busy it's stacked from 2,000 agl to above 10,000 msl.

 

[Vf6cruiser]

Draw a 15 mile circle around the Seal Beach Vor and you were at one time in the busiest airspace in the world, may still be for all I know. Flown out of SNA-LGB-FUL a lot. LGB is a nice place to fly.......lots of room........more efficient to fly out of uncrowded FUL. SNA is a madhouse but tremendous training, you absolutely never know what they will throw at you (think 270's mid pattern)......have a thorough understanding of wake turbulence if you run over to SNA, the place will seriously kill you if you aren't careful. You can't go wrong with either LGB or FUL.........and you will be ready for anything after a few trips thru the corridor...........

 

[johnrweb]

FUL or LGB. I have been thinking the exact same question. I live in Westminster which is 30 min to FUL and 15 min to LGB. I was attracted to FUL because there's a flying club, RIFC, that has nice club members and their C172 is a reasonable $89 hobbs. I was wondering if a club CFI would have enough instruction experience vs a flight school CFI. Anbody familiar with RIFC?

LGB has a few flight schools and it seems to be a place many people go for training. So that's a plus for LGB. I wonder which is better, Long Beach Flying Club or Aces High Aviation?

 

[johnrweb]

I looked at Daniel Wotring's website and he seems to be more dedicated to tailwheel and advanced training. He didn't seem to have any of the standard training planes such as C172 on his website.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I looked at Daniel Wotring's website and he seems to be more dedicated to tailwheel and advanced training. He didn't seem to have any of the standard training planes such as C172 on his website.

He may be doing advanced stuff only right now simply due to all the stuff he is involved in these days. There is a guy who posts occasionally here that he partnered with on the T-6 and a DC-3 that they are trying to get up and running at Chino. Plus he started flying a CAF Wildcat this past year.

When he has done primary instruction, he uses a rental 172 from the FBO or flight school there and believe it or not, he also uses the 170 for primary stuff.

If interested, I'd shoot him an email and see if he is taking on any primary students.

 

[vdehart]

FUL or LGB. I have been thinking the exact same question. I live in Westminster which is 30 min to FUL and 15 min to LGB. I was attracted to FUL because there's a flying club, RIFC, that has nice club members and their C172 is a reasonable $89 hobbs. I was wondering if a club CFI would have enough instruction experience vs a flight school CFI. Anbody familiar with RIFC?

LGB has a few flight schools and it seems to be a place many people go for training. So that's a plus for LGB. I wonder which is better, Long Beach Flying Club or Aces High Aviation?

Aces High has much nicer planes but for a higher rate. Many of the instructors at Aces used to be at Long Beach Flying Club but broke away when Aces was formed.

Long Beach Flying Club has the absolute rock bottom rates but the planes aren't quite as shiny. They are still safe and well maintained but they have had a LOT of hard hours. The availability of the 152s isn't great but if you fly 172 or Piper you are much better off and pay a great rate. LBFC has $20 monthly dues.

I'd recommend LBFC but it's hard to not be biased since I still fly there. PM me if you have any questions.