Soaring into class A question

drizzt76

drizzt76

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Scott M.
With Tony's great write ups about soaring I have a simple and maybe stupid question. We all know you have to file a IFR flight plan and be cleared into class A airspace...what do gliders do? I read that in order to earn a diamond altitude you must climb over 16,404 feet...in most cases (depending on what altitude MSL you are released from) that will put you in class A....I'm off to look for something about this in the FAR....
 
Often a "wave window" is opened by Center which is basically a block of airspace that effectively raises the floor of Class A to allow glider operations in the area. Typically communication and transponders are not required as ATC keeps all other traffic out of that area when it is active.

Also, IFR ops in a glider are possible. Part 61 and 91 do have allowances for Glider IFR flying. There are a few (emphasis on few) folks who fly IFR in their glider, getting block altitude clearances, flying wave in the Sierras. I also know of at least one guy who is outfitted for IFR with a Dynon EFIS and backup turn and bank who thermals in cumulus clouds with block altitude clearances.
 
drizzt76 said:
With Tony's great write ups about soaring I have a simple and maybe stupid question. We all know you have to file a IFR flight plan and be cleared into class A airspace...what do gliders do? I read that in order to earn a diamond altitude you must climb over 16,404 feet...in most cases (depending on what altitude MSL you are released from) that will put you in class A....I'm off to look for something about this in the FAR....
Click to expand...

A starts at FL180
 
EdFred said:
A starts at FL180
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I think his point was that if you need to soar to 16,404 AGL you'd have to start somewhere where the field elevation was less than 1,596 MSL (on a standard day).
 
FlyNE said:
I think his point was that if you need to soar to 16,404 AGL you'd have to start somewhere where the field elevation was less than 1,596 MSL (on a standard day).
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Didn't say AGL in the post. And why a number of 16,404? Why not 16,000, or 16,500. Why the odd number? Tony?
 
Yup, Meters. There are also "lennie" pins (as in Lenticular) for higher climbs in increments up to 40K. Pressure demand O2 systems required.

There aren't too many personal civilian aircraft with the capability to take you that high.
 
5000 meters is correct...but if I stated 5000 meters then the conversion would have to been made understand my question. Looking at the records set it not just reaching that 5000 meter mark but some have climbed well into class A.

Steve the link didn't work...it says the question was deleted:dunno:.

So Tony lets say that you have a really good flying day and your burying our state record for altitude of 11,200 ft. Do you have Minneaplois or Chicago center on speed dial?? Also oxygen is another question...I seen some gliders have it equiped but is that something that we deal with in Iowa?
 
HA I just seen your post Matt...I seen the 11,200 record is yours! Anyone should free to answer my newbie soaring questions...(I should not have directed the question to one person...lesson learned)
 
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l'm sorry Scott, the link works for me, but anyhew...what Tony says is basically the information the link contained. Contact the center for the area of intended flight beforehand (FAR says 4 days) and get a block altitude.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080112022211AAn1R5w

An IFR rating is not required to enter class A airspace in a glider, however there are some restrictions that apply.

The glider needs to have an operable electrical system and transponder (Mode C), as well as a two way radio. It's also highly recommended that you carry a means of navigating (such as a handheld GPS).

Glider pilots wishing to enter class A airspace should contact the overseeing authority (Applicable Air Route Traffic Control Center), and request a deviation allowance. According to the regs, you're supposed to do so at least 4 days in advance, however I know folks who have called over the frequency and requested entry and been granted it.

The big thing is you must receive clearance from ATC prior to entering Class A airspace! Generally they will assign you a block of airspace (horizontal and vertical limits).

____________________________________
From the FAR's:

91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.

Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:

(a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.

(b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.

(c) Transponder requirement. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.

(d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.


And, your original post said "climb over 16,404 feet" which doesn't require a qualifier of MSL or AGL. ;)


drizzt76 said:
5000 meters is correct...but if I stated 5000 meters then the conversion would have to been made understand my question. Looking at the records set it not just reaching that 5000 meter mark but some have climbed well into class A.

Steve the link didn't work...it says the question was deleted:dunno:.

So Tony lets say that you have a really good flying day and your burying our state record for altitude of 11,200 ft. Do you have Minneaplois or Chicago center on speed dial?? Also oxygen is another question...I seen some gliders have it equiped but is that something that we deal with in Iowa?
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For the FAI altitude soaring badges (silver,gold,diamond) it's not the altitude reached but the GAIN of altitude. For records both gain and actual altitude can be claimed.

Most gliders east of the rockies dont have oxygen systems installed. Most west of denver do. The majority are for extended flights to 18000 though some are set up for pressure demand altitudes. Depends what your objective is. For XC soaring in thermals you rarely go above 18K in the mountains. The wave windows are too small for extended XC flights VFR. For altitude climbs in the windows and the few who fly XC wave above 18000 on IFR clearances pressure demand systems with large capacity tanks are common. A few gliders have been set up with LOX systems for long duration high altitude flight, usually 2 seaters in which the occupants are wearing space suits for flight above 45K.

In Iowa and other midwestern states almost no one has oxygen installed unless they commonly take their gliders to western locals. There are a few wave soaring sites in the eastern mountains where you will find 02 systems. I can't remember the typical heights reached there but perhaps mid 20s on a good day.

The Iowa altitude records aren't likely to be broken in VFR thermal flying. That day was a very rare high cloudbase day. I've only seen 3 days like it in 20 years. Someone will probably have to venture into a towering cumulus cloud with O2, instruments, and a block clearance. This was once common though few do it in the US today and it's typically thought to be foolhardy. Another way it might be done is by climbing VFR in wave generated over the top of cumulus clouds. This has been documented to at least 14K in northern Illinois and nearby areas on one special day some years ago.
 
Steve said:
And, your original post said "climb over 16,404 feet" which doesn't require a qualifier of MSL or AGL. ;)
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:cheerswine:^


Thanks Steve and Matt. How do you tell you wife that you are going to need a spacesuit for you glider flight out west? :D
 
Hey Matt, I was talking to Ted Clausing the other day about that exact same phenomenon the other week. He found wave generated off of cluds and got up to 14,000' in southern WI. Didn't have a barograph on him that flight so no official record though.
 
vontresc said:
Hey Matt, I was talking to Ted Clausing the other day about that exact same phenomenon the other week. He found wave generated off of cluds and got up to 14,000' in southern WI. Didn't have a barograph on him that flight so no official record though.
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Why do you need a barograph? Wouldn't a modern GPS do just as well? I presume they can track altitude as part of location, and many retain a track history.
 
Well this was in the dark ages of GPS (i.e. 1990 i think). Also for badges and records the FAI is pretty anal about verification. A modern GPS FAI approved logger is gonna cost you about a grand due to all the security and verification setpes built into the loggers (price is mainly a function of the complexity of the device and small market).

In the olden days before GPS loggers you had to declare your flight and submit pictures of the turnpoints along your baro trace to prove you were actually there.
 
vontresc said:
Well this was in the dark ages of GPS (i.e. 1990 i think).A modern GPS FAI approved logger is gonna cost you about a grand due to all the security and verification setpes built into the loggers (price is mainly a function of the complexity of the device and small market).
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The logger could be a tenth of the cost of the sailplane. I know with avionics and powered airplanes that isn't anything new. I just wish it would be diffrent for gliders...
 
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