So which runway would you have picked?

[ScottM]

Taken from AvWeb today:

Heard on the air near KTRK. The airport has two runways: 10/28 and 01/19


http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KTRK/ALL/all/pdf


According to the AFD the runway specs are:
01/19 4650 feet long, 75 feet wide, Asphalt Good Medium
10/28 7000 feet long, 100 feet wide, Asphalt Good Medium

Which runway would you pick or would you, like the twin Cessna driver need a recommendation?


Cessna:
"Truckee Unicom, Twin Cessna XXX eight miles southwest. Runway advisory, please."

Unicom:
"Winds are 190 at 20, gusting 30. All runways are open."

Cessna (slightly clueless sound in his voice) :
"Do you have a suggested runway?"

Unicom:
"Most aircraft are using 19, right traffic."

Cessna:
"Roger. 19, right traffic."

 

[AdamZ]

Happens all the time. I can understand the request for runway advisorys on a calm day, perhaps there is a favored calm wind runway and thats not much of a big deal. But thats not the case here.

Yesterday we flew from UKT to GED. GED is uncontrolled and has 4/22 and 10/28 wind was calm and folks were using 4, 22 and 28. Some guy lands can't recall which runway and says ' Bugsmasher N2345X clear the Active. Ugh

 

[EdFred]

Option 5, but only so I am away from the idiot who is asking which runway to use.

 

[RMCN172RG]

I picked 19 but 10 or 28 would work for cross wind practice and it is the longer runway.

Besides it might be closer to where I would be parking.

Sounds like I could use a suggestion

 

[Ted]

A friend of mine was saying that her friend's CFI hadn't taught him how to figure that out, and having only flown out of a towered field, was always assigned a runway and just took it.

My response tends to be "Why don't you listen to the weather and figure it out."

Sad...

 

[poadeleted20]

Yesterday we flew from UKT to GED. GED is uncontrolled and has 4/22 and 10/28 wind was calm and folks were using 4, 22 and 18.

Kinda hard to use 18 there, but I think we get the idea.

Some guy lands can't recall which runway and says ' Bugsmasher N2345X clear the Active. Ugh

Drives me nuts, too, especially since you have to cross 4/22 to get to the ramp from 10/28.

BTW, one of the big problems at GED is that the wind direction part of the ASOS is quite unreliable, but nobody's been able to convince the powers-that-be of that to the point of either fixing it or NOTAM'ing it. Some days the ASOS says it's out of the north, and there are idiots landing on 4 even though the windsock and T are both showing the wind is blowing dead out of the west at 20 knots.

 

[poadeleted20]

I picked 19 but 10 or 28 would work for cross wind practice and it is the longer runway.

A direct 20G30 crosswind is a rather demanding practice condition, but you'll definitely get your XW skills exercised thoroughly.

 

[AdamZ]

Kinda hard to use 18 there, but I think we get the idea.
Drives me nuts, too, especially since you have to cross 4/22 to get to the ramp from 10/28.

BTW, one of the big problems at GED is that the wind direction part of the ASOS is quite unreliable, but nobody's been able to convince the powers-that-be of that to the point of either fixing it or NOTAM'ing it. Some days the ASOS says it's out of the north, and there are idiots landing on 4 even though the windsock and T are both showing the wind is blowing dead out of the west at 20 knots.

Yeah yeah I had fat fingers

As for the ASOS there " Tell me bout it" yesterday it was calm to about 7 but nuthin made sense ASOS said one thing, T said another and the sock said something else. I'm convinced the sock is stuck. But flags on top of the museum showed the T was pretty much correct.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Yeah yeah I had fat fingers

As for the ASOS there " Tell me bout it" yesterday it was calm to about 7 but nuthin made sense ASOS said one thing, T said another and the sock said something else. I'm convinced the sock is stuck. But flags on top of the museum showed the T was pretty much correct.

KOSC:

Additional Remarks

- DURG DALGT HRS TAILWINDS MAY EXIST OVER APCH ENDS RY 06 & 24 SIMULTANEOUSLY

 

[EdFred]

KOSC:

Additional Remarks

- DURG DALGT HRS TAILWINDS MAY EXIST OVER APCH ENDS RY 06 & 24 SIMULTANEOUSLY

That makes sense though when you look at the airport. That's a good question for students, I'm going to have to stick that in my book o questions for flight reviews and sign-offs.

 

[gismo]

For takeoff in a twin I generally stick to the longest runway regardless of the wind but at reasonably low DA, 4500 ft is long enough. But for landing I'm happy with a much shorter length that's into the wind and 20G30 is strong enough to warrant landing into the wind IMO (unless you really want the xwind practice).

 

[Everskyward]

So maybe the pilot should have been able to figure out on his or her own what runway to use but there's no harm in asking. Maybe the knowledge of other traffic in the area would have influenced their decision. We always tell people to ask a question when they are not sure of something. We don't tell them that after they ask it they might be called out for being ignorant.

 

[EdFred]

So maybe the pilot should have been able to figure out on his or her own what runway to use but there's no harm in asking. Maybe the knowledge of other traffic in the area would have influenced their decision. We always tell people to ask a question when they are not sure of something. We don't tell them that after they ask it they might be called out for being ignorant.

If it was a student in a 150, sure. But come on, the guy is flying a Twin Cessna. I gotta believe he is at least IR and Commercial. Sounds like a jet jockey (no offense) that always goes into controlled fields and forgot how to determine a runway.

 

[poadeleted20]

Maybe the knowledge of other traffic in the area would have influenced their decision.

The knowledge of what other traffic at that airport is doing may influence one's decision on when to land (i.e., to wait until you can use the runway you want), but absent some bit of local data you don't have (like one-way airports), it should not influence one's decision on which runway to use. Stuff like that is how folks end up on their back because someone with more skill in a more capable aircraft chose the runway with 20G30 straight across it.

 

[Everskyward]

Sounds like a jet jockey (no offense) that always goes into controlled fields and forgot how to determine a runway.

What makes you think jets rarely go into uncontrolled fields?

 

[Everskyward]

The knowledge of what other traffic at that airport is doing may influence one's decision on when to land (i.e., to wait until you can use the runway you want), but absent some bit of local data you don't have (like one-way airports), it should not influence one's decision on which runway to use. Stuff like that is how folks end up on their back because someone with more skill in a more capable aircraft chose the runway with 20G30 straight across it.

I don't think you should land on a runway if you don't think you are capable of doing so just because of the flow of traffic but I'll sometimes change runways to fit in after I've heard somebody in front of me using something else. This happens more often in calmer wind situations though.

 

[ScottM]

The knowledge of what other traffic at that airport is doing may influence one's decision on when to land (i.e., to wait until you can use the runway you want), but absent some bit of local data you don't have (like one-way airports), it should not influence one's decision on which runway to use. Stuff like that is how folks end up on their back because someone with more skill in a more capable aircraft chose the runway with 20G30 straight across it.

Are you saying that maybe he should have asked ATITAPA?

 

[poadeleted20]

Are you saying that maybe he should have asked ATITAPA?

Not only no, but what made you think I was?

 

[ScottM]

Not only no, but what made you think I was?

You said that knowledge of what the traffic at the airport was doing could influence one's decision about runway choice.

There is only one best way of determining that? ATITAPA!!! RIGHT??

 

[SCCutler]

Funny thing - ever since I started flying to Marfa (KMRF) fairly regularly, I am not so intimidated by crosswinds...

 

[Clark1961]

What makes you think jets rarely go into uncontrolled fields?

I was at 9U4 a couple weeks ago when a Gulfstream showed up 10 miles out with ATITPPA. I called warming on the ramp. (now where is that evil grin smiley?).

9U4 is just about as uncontrolled (and for a paved runway, unvisited) as it gets. Even the antelope roam pretty freely...

 

[EdFred]

What makes you think jets rarely go into uncontrolled fields?

I meant him. Not all jets. Seen plenty of them at fields with no tower, even saw one at a field with no FBO.

 

[poadeleted20]

You said that knowledge of what the traffic at the airport was doing could influence one's decision about runway choice.

No, I didn't.

There is only one best way of determining that? ATITAPA!!! RIGHT??

Not right.

 

[ScottM]

No, I didn't.

Not right.

Whatever.

 

[colohan]

I find all the discussion of crosswinds interesting. If it is a 30-knot windy day at Truckee, crosswinds are the least of my concerns.

In the 172s I've gone up there with (with my very limited experience), I'd probably be having the crap beaten out of me by turbulence, and wonder if I could make onto the ground alive. Winds at 190 mean that they are coming into the airport just after going over a couple of large mountain peaks -- will there be rotors, or mountain wave to worry about? If I was smart, I'd turn around and leave the mountains behind, and return in a car.

It is also summer right now. What was the temperature at Truckee when that guy checked in? The density altitude can get pretty crazy in mid-summer.

Chris

 

[colohan]

Not all jets. Seen plenty of them at fields with no tower, even saw one at a field with no FBO.

An unusually large fraction of the traffic at KTRK is jets. Lots of expensive resorts in the area...

Chris

 

[rottydaddy]

I'd take 19, and I wouldn't ask. I stopped doing that a while back- I agree on the point that what everybody else is doing- or trying to do, or what someone on the ground says everybody's doing- is not necessarily what will be best for you when you come over the fence. And in the end, that is the time when you will probably know if your decision was sound.

Traffic flow must be considered, but "pilot-controlled" means "each pilot controls their actions", not "everybody does what the guy before them did".


Having said all that about ATITAPA, etc., I should mention that more than once I've been on the ground or in the pattern watching the sock switch up on a crosswind day, and taken it upon myself to advise an arrival (who is still too far out to see the sock): "it's up to you, but the wind is favoring runway XX right now." I'm most likely to do it when it's somebody I know, who knows I'm not playing controller; just offering a little help.

I'm usually unlikely to answer an "ATITAPA" query, though, unless conditions are as I just described... but I don't make a habit of it, and neither should anyone else. We all have to be prepared to figure this stuff out on our own- if you are arriving at an unfamiliar field, uncertain of winds, and there's nobody around to watch or ask, you shouldn't feel at a loss when "ATITAPA" doesn't yield any results.

We should have at least a half-hour reserve, so there's time to overfly, have a look, think it over... unless the choice is obvious, as it would be to me in the example above. No point in taking the wider runway when it's 20 gusting 30... the elbow room wouldn't do much good, IMHO, and with 19, the wind would be right on your nose, gusts or no gusts.

 

[Dr. O]

I routinely use the cross wind runway at our uncontrolled field - you never know, I may have to do it for real someday...

denny-o

 

[Ted]

So maybe the pilot should have been able to figure out on his or her own what runway to use but there's no harm in asking. Maybe the knowledge of other traffic in the area would have influenced their decision. We always tell people to ask a question when they are not sure of something. We don't tell them that after they ask it they might be called out for being ignorant.

While I understand your point, by the time someone gets his or her private, that pilot should be able to determine which runway is the best to use on his or her own. I find it disturbing that there are so many people who seem to be completely unaware of how to determine an appropriate runway to land on who are well past the student in a 150 stage.

 

[Ted]

I routinely use the cross wind runway at our uncontrolled field - you never know, I may have to do it for real someday...

I routinely have to use the crosswind runway because that's the only one available at whatever airport I'm landing at. Plus, crosswind landings are fun.

 

[poadeleted20]

...I should mention that more than once I've been on the ground or in the pattern watching the sock switch up on a crosswind day, and taken it upon myself to advise an arrival (who is still too far out to see the sock): "it's up to you, but the wind is favoring runway XX right now."

If I know what the wind is, I may tell them that, but other than announcing my position and intentions, I won't suggest what runway to use. In fact, for liability reasons, many FBO's have told their staff not to suggest a runway or even inform what runway traffic is using.

I'm usually unlikely to answer an "ATITAPA" query,

I'm absolutely certain not to answer it (other than, perhaps, if freq is quiet, to tell them "Buy low, sell high"), but I will continue making my advisory calls as to where I am and what I'm doing at the appropriate time.

 

[xaminmo]

If I know what the wind is, I may tell them that, but other than announcing my position and intentions, I won't suggest what runway to use. In fact, for liability reasons, many FBO's have told their staff not to suggest a runway or even inform what runway traffic is using.

I'm absolutely certain not to answer it (other than, perhaps, if freq is quiet, to tell them "Buy low, sell high"), but I will continue making my advisory calls as to where I am and what I'm doing at the appropriate time.

Heh, I like that... "buy low, sell high."

And Any-Traffic-Advisory calls are poor form, nuisance, and when using UNICOM, can clobber someone 20 miles away at another uncontrolled airport. Responding from the ground just promotes more congestion on the hertz. There's already enough with position calls..

 

[Jeanie]

Funny thing - ever since I started flying to Marfa (KMRF) fairly regularly, I am not so intimidated by crosswinds...

Spike,

When I read that I laughed out loud and said "Geez, ya think?"... Wind is just how it is out there.....
~~~~~~

Maybe the guy in the twin was fatigued and just not on his game. Disorientation due to fatigue is a weird insidious thing... Anyway, better to ask and seem "dumb" than to not ask and do something dumb - no matter at what level of expertise you supposedly have mastered....

Just a thought

 

[gismo]

Whatever.

Scott, if you read Ron's post carefully you'll see he wrote that knowing what runways other traffic is using should/could be use to determine when to land but not where.

 

[ScottM]

Scott, if you read Ron's post carefully you'll see he wrote that knowing what runways other traffic is using should/could be use to determine when to land but not where.

The initial response was to joke with Ron, But I forgot who I was trying to engage in humor and frivolity.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Way back in Army flight school in the thriving, mobile home served community of Mineral Wells, Texas, it was fun to hear the arriving helo traffic make their calls with military precision! Army 12345 yellow panel in bound; Army 23456 red panel inbound, etc. One class took off and arrived within a very short period; with the second class shortly behind. Gaggle outbound; play at the remote fields; gaggle arrival.
One day while arriving and having listened to the normal queue of bird arriving; a VNAF student coming in makes his call: ME LAND NOW!
Tower asked who was calling and where they were.
Student repeats: ME LAND NOW! (Until his instructor got on the radio).

Why bother with nonessential <g>
He probably did better in English than I would have in his language <g>

Best,

Dave

 

[gismo]

One day while arriving and having listened to the normal queue of bird arriving; a VNAF student coming in makes his call: ME LAND NOW!
Tower asked who was calling and where they were.
Student repeats: ME LAND NOW! (Until his instructor got on the radio).

Why bother with nonessential <g>
He probably did better in English than I would have in his language <g>

I gotta try that sometime.