So exactly why is a pattern altitude designated?

Clark1961

Clark1961

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Had an "interesting" experience with a Tri-Pacer in the pattern today...I think the guy has crop-duster genes or something. He flew the pattern about 500 AGL when the designated altitude is 1000 AGL. He also used the Bravo surface boundary (FTG) for his cross- and downwind-legs. I continually S-turned to keep him in sight. The tower extended his downwind all the way to the penalty box...well, it was a ways out anyway.
 
Pattern altitude can actually stagger quite nicely if everyone just follows the 45° pattern rule.
 
You should have asked for a 360 for spacing,it may have helped keep the pattern in closer.
 
Nothing wrong with that, shy of the off chance you're exactly at his speed and exactly over him (not likley) you got to be blind to no see another plane in the pattern with you, even if he's 500 below your pattern.

When many folks fly turboprops they fly a 1500' downwind.

Much to do about nothing :dunno:
 
frfly172 said:
You should have asked for a 360 for spacing,it may have helped keep the pattern in closer.
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Did you see the note about boundary of the Bravo surface area? A 360 to the left wasn't an option (unless it was an emergency) and I wasn't about to ask for a 360 to the right since we were right traffic. My choices weren't good, traffic on both the E-W and the N-S and a couple guys on practice approaches.

I only flew one downwind behind and above him since the tower fixed the situation by sending him east. Got in three landings and called it a morning. I did get in my three landings before the Tripe made another landing. That guy was slow and I know Tripes aren't normally that slow.
 
James331 said:
Nothing wrong with that, shy of the off chance you're exactly at his speed and exactly over him (not likley) you got to be blind to no see another plane in the pattern with you, even if he's 500 below your pattern.

When many folks fly turboprops they fly a 1500' downwind.

Much to do about nothing :dunno:
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I've flown with slower/lower before and the guys who do it right stay inside the higher faster traffic. Works the same with the 1,500' pattern guys or the 3,500+ big boys. This guy was flying the widest possible pattern low and slow. I could not keep him in sight without the S-turns. Think about that for a second.
 
We have a couple air tractors on the field. They enter from any direction at a couple hundred AGL. I once called out climbing through 1500. He said, "if I got that high, I'd have a nose bleed" so it is what it is.
 
Clark1961 said:
The tower extended his downwind all the way to the penalty box...well, it was a ways out anyway.
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Clark1961 said:
I only flew one downwind behind and above him since the tower fixed the situation by sending him east.
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If you're at a towered field and someone is not following the published guidelines for that field it's the towers job to let them know. I hear reminders about pattern altitudes all the time around here. Sounds like they did their job by getting him out of the way, and you're still complaining about it? If someone is doing something you think is unsafe within controlled airspace you should speak up and have the controller figure it out. You dont need to ask for a 360 or to figure out how to make everything work, but it is your job to ensure safety of flight. A simple query to the tower about the traffic would prompt them to deal with the situation. "tower N123XY I have traffic below me, are they a factor?" would probably work. Chances are good they would call the other plane and either tell them to get to the right height or GTFO.
 
Clark1961 said:
Did you see the note about boundary of the Bravo surface area? A 360 to the left wasn't an option (unless it was an emergency) and I wasn't about to ask for a 360 to the right since we were right traffic. My choices weren't good, traffic on both the E-W and the N-S and a couple guys on practice approaches.

I only flew one downwind behind and above him since the tower fixed the situation by sending him east. Got in three landings and called it a morning. I did get in my three landings before the Tripe made another landing. That guy was slow and I know Tripes aren't normally that slow.
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You would be forgiven your transgression into the B upon explanation thanks to the Cory Liddle deal. "Sorry, I had traffic below my nose I couldn't see and needed some spacing." Done...
 
StinkBug said:
If you're at a towered field and someone is not following the published guidelines for that field it's the towers job to let them know. I hear reminders about pattern altitudes all the time around here. Sounds like they did their job by getting him out of the way, and you're still complaining about it? If someone is doing something you think is unsafe within controlled airspace you should speak up and have the controller figure it out. You dont need to ask for a 360 or to figure out how to make everything work, but it is your job to ensure safety of flight. A simple query to the tower about the traffic would prompt them to deal with the situation. "tower N123XY I have traffic below me, are they a factor?" would probably work. Chances are good they would call the other plane and either tell them to get to the right height or GTFO.
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It is class D airspace. Care to edit your comments?
 
Class D airspace requires that you be in 2 way communication with ATC, that means you're talking to the tower, and the guy below you should too. So no, I wouldn't like to edit a thing. It's simple, you see something, you speak up, and no matter what if that something becomes a safety issue you take control and avoid a collision.
 
Henning said:
You would be forgiven your transgression into the B upon explanation thanks to the Cory Liddle deal. "Sorry, I had traffic below my nose I couldn't see and needed some spacing." Done...
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Or you advise the tower that you need the spacing before they have to call you on it. It's called PIC authority. Most Class D fields that are that close to a B deal with this stuff all day. Nobody is going to bust you for avoiding a conflict.
 
StinkBug said:
Class D airspace requires that you be in 2 way communication with ATC, that means you're talking to the tower, and the guy below you should too. So no, I wouldn't like to edit a thing. It's simple, you see something, you speak up, and no matter what if that something becomes a safety issue you take control and avoid a collision.
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I agree, it is each pilots responsibility to operate safely.

It is not the tower's responsibility to do anything other than provide separation on the runway.
 
Clark1961 said:
I've flown with slower/lower before and the guys who do it right stay inside the higher faster traffic. Works the same with the 1,500' pattern guys or the 3,500+ big boys. This guy was flying the widest possible pattern low and slow. I could not keep him in sight without the S-turns. Think about that for a second.
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Meh, yeah that is a little odd, like you said most guys who fly a low pattern keep it in tight.
 
According to the FAA, Most pattern accidents at non towered airports occur with one aircraft overtaking another from above , not seeing it and the two not communicating. It's difficult to see other aircraft at times, no matter how hard you scan and calling your position entering, downwind, base , final is really important, clearly and briefly. I follow the published tpa .....always. Quite often there's a clown who refuses to use a radio. Real dumb. As for why a pattern altitude is given......you mean you really don't know?!
 
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Clark1961 said:
Did you see the note about boundary of the Bravo surface area? A 360 to the left wasn't an option (unless it was an emergency) and I wasn't about to ask for a 360 to the right since we were right traffic. My choices weren't good, traffic on both the E-W and the N-S and a couple guys on practice approaches.

I only flew one downwind behind and above him since the tower fixed the situation by sending him east. Got in three landings and called it a morning. I did get in my three landings before the Tripe made another landing. That guy was slow and I know Tripes aren't normally that slow.
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You might have just told the tower "I can't follow him, I'm going around at pattern altitude"
 
luvflyin said:
You might have just told the tower "I can't follow him, I'm going around at pattern altitude"
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No way I was going to overfly the guy and lose sight of him. If he decided to climb at the wrong time it would have been a really bad situation.

I did stay behind the guy by making S-turns which was the safest thing to do under the circumstances.
 
Clark1961 said:
No way I was going to overfly the guy and lose sight of him. If he decided to climb at the wrong time it would have been a really bad situation.

I did stay behind the guy by making S-turns which was the safest thing to do under the circumstances.
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Of course you keep him in sight while doing it until you are past him. That usually means going around right side if your flying from the left seat. He's low and slow, the conflict would be over pretty quick. I'm not saying it would be necessarily you're first option to deal with the situation, just one of the options. Flying low and slow on final and S turning has it's own set of issues.
 
Clark1961 said:
Had an "interesting" experience with a Tri-Pacer in the pattern today...I think the guy has crop-duster genes or something. He flew the pattern about 500 AGL when the designated altitude is 1000 AGL. He also used the Bravo surface boundary (FTG) for his cross- and downwind-legs. I continually S-turned to keep him in sight. The tower extended his downwind all the way to the penalty box...well, it was a ways out anyway.
Click to expand...

I'm just curious and nothing more - what were you in?
 
A towered airport? Separation is the controller's responsibility. If you didn't feel like you could slow down enough to maintain spacing you should have asked for a 360 or to turn over the strip at pattern altitude and fly outbound until you could return inbound with adequate spacing. What's the big deal? I fly a Skywagon in the company of Cubs. Speed conflicts are common and managing them is simple.
 
Stewartb said:
A towered airport? Separation is the controller's responsibility. If you didn't feel like you could slow down enough to maintain spacing you should have asked for a 360 or to turn over the strip at pattern altitude and fly outbound until you could return inbound with adequate spacing. What's the big deal? I fly a Skywagon in the company of Cubs. Speed conflicts are common and managing them is simple.
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Glad I'm not the only one that understands how to work with a tower.
 
StinkBug said:
Glad I'm not the only one that understands how to work with a tower.
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I was kinda thinking the same thing.

He mentioned he wasn't going to take a right turn back into the pattern. Not sure what damage a right turn, over the runway and back out bound to a right turn back in bound would hurt.
 
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Stewartb said:
A towered airport? Separation is the controller's responsibility.
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As previously mentioned, it was Delta airspace. Separation on the runway is controller's responsibility. Separation in the air is pilot's responsibility for VFR traffic.
 
Clark1961 said:
No way I was going to overfly the guy and lose sight of him. If he decided to climb at the wrong time it would have been a really bad situation.

I did stay behind the guy by making S-turns which was the safest thing to do under the circumstances.
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Downwind 26? I would have told the tower I'm turning south over the runway then entering the pattern again on the upwind left pattern on 26. Or head further south, let him get out of the way, then back to 26.
 
murphey said:
Downwind 26? I would have told the tower I'm turning south over the runway then entering the pattern again on the upwind left pattern on 26. Or head further south, let him get out of the way, then back to 26.
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Traffic was inbound an a practice approach. I ended up following the practice approach guy for my landing.

All these folks suggesting a right turn from right traffic need to remember that there may already be traffic over the runway.
 
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Clark1961 said:
Separation on the runway is controller's responsibility. Separation in the air is pilot's responsibility for VFR traffic.
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You keep repeating this like the tower is just there to keep you from having an issue only on the ground. You're right, the tower doesn't provide traffic separation.

What they do provide is sequencing and runway separation.

You could have attempted to use all the resources available, the tower and their ability to sequence aircraft, to help you come up with an answer.

Asking and/or telling the tower what you need is part of you keeping VFR separation from the Tripe.

Clark1961 said:
All these folks suggesting a right turn from right traffic need to remember that there may already be traffic over the runway.
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So, it's safe to assume that there was traffic over the runway?
 
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