sleeping pills ADHD

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I am curious if there will be any problems from taking prescription sleeping pills about a year ago when it comes to getting my 3rd class medical. I had difficulty sleeping for a short period of time after I went through a difficult end to a long term relationship.

I am re-starting my process of getting my sports pilots license or possibly a private pilot’s license. I was denied my medical certificate in 2009. I was denied because of a brief period in which I took medication for ADHD as an eight year old child in 1993. I used the medication periodically for roughly three years. Over the last 17 years I have not taken any medication what so ever or needed to be treated in any way for ADHD. I did see improvements from medication but the side effects were not worth it. I was told that I needed to go through approximately $2000 worth of testing while being drug tested for medications used to treat ADHD. The added $2000 worth of expenses, plus the physiologist suggesting that we do the testing spread over three to four days, was just too much of a financial burden.
If anyone has any experience with either of these two issues, I would love to hear about it. I think I might need to add anxiety/anger issues to the list, just over the battle I have already been through with the FAA. Unfortunately, my private pilot instructor gave me no advice on how to prepare for the medical examiner. Just turned out to be a mountain of paperwork plus 9 months worth of faxing information, waiting a month, being disappointed and faxing more information.
 
Since your last FAA medical application was denied, you're not going to be able to fly Sport Pilot until you get an FAA medical certificate issued, and there's no getting around that one. So, without spending that $2000 for those tests and getting the FAA to issue a medical certificate (even if you later let it lapse and move to a Drivers License basis), you're up the creek without a paddle. Bruce will no doubt be along later this evening with more details.
 
Despite Ron's bubble popping post, you can go for a glider rating. No medical needed and no stupid rule about not being previously denied.

There are powered gliders out that many won't notice the difference except for the longer wings.
 
Anymouse said:
Despite Ron's bubble popping post, you can go for a glider rating. No medical needed and no stupid rule about not being previously denied.
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...and yet 61.53 still applies. Given the medical history involved, it might easily be argued that the OP "knows or has reason to know of [a] medical condition that would make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner." Y'all be careful about advising folks with significant medical issues to believe otherwise.
 
Ron Levy said:
...and yet 61.53 still applies. Given the medical history involved, it might easily be argued that the OP "knows or has reason to know of [a] medical condition that would make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner." Y'all be careful about advising folks with significant medical issues to believe otherwise.
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Taking a medication 17 years ago and never again would be stretching it I think, but I agree this is not something you or I should decide, and as onerous as it may seem and as unfair it may seem and as ridiculous it may seem the rules the FAA sets up are the final arbitrator as it is the FAA that allows us the privelege of flying.
 
Just a *totally* hypothetical question. If a sport pilot is involved in an accident or incident does the FAA actually check to see if he/she has ever been denied a medical certificate?
 
Old Geek said:
Just a *totally* hypothetical question. If a sport pilot is involved in an accident or incident does the FAA actually check to see if he/she has ever been denied a medical certificate?
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So they say. If you don't need insurance it doesn't matter. And does anyone else wonder if Ron is ever able to convince himself flying is sometimes legal?
 
ClimbnSink said:
So they say. If you don't need insurance it doesn't matter. And does anyone else wonder if Ron is ever able to convince himself flying is sometimes legal?
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Ron's by the book. So is the FAA. That's why I appreciate and value Ron's input. Even if I eventually make a choice to play on the edge, I at least want to know where the edge is; and I can always count on Ron for that information.

-Rich
 
Wow. Simmeringly angry peanut gallery here....

To Unreg: the only thing you can fly with an engine is a self launching glider. Yes 61.53 does apply to you. With your history, if you want insurance you'd probalby better have a doc in record someplace say he thinks you can do it.

ADD is a lifelong information processing mental disorder, but it comes in many many "shades of gray" (dang, she took that phrase away from me). We apparently get better in the mid 20s because by then, a mild case with good intelligence, figures out personality workarounds so that information is presented by you, to yourself, in a useful manner. But the underlying cognitive problem is still there....if you ever had it at all. Trouble is the record of the scripts says, "some doc thought you did".

What the neurocog evalutor does, is score all 12 cognitive areas indedpently, and norms them against other 30 year olds. You could have wekanesses in auditory and visual attention, but they could just be weaknesses relative to the rest of some very strong suits. Say, your IQ is 130. Your executive function accuracy and speed is at 30% above the median. But your visual attention score is only at 100, or median. It's a relative wekaness. But your attention score is still better than half the 30 year old pilots. So this weakness in attention would not be scored as ADD. It would be scored as a weakness not rising to the level of ADD....

Follow the logic?

The reason it's so da_ned expensive is the number of proprietary tests that the NeuroPsych guy as to pay fees for, and the fact that it really consumes the guys office for a whole day, and for the psych for about half a day after just compiling al the data and using the statisitcal population norms to create a written picture. This is actualy the same profiling used in selecting elite Special Forces.

No, the requirement for a HIMS certified neuropsych evaluation has not changed. It's still $2,000, but can be done in one long day if you choose the right shop. Where are you geographically?

PS The sleeping pills if in 2010 will be dipatched with in one line by the psych.
 
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douglas393 said:
Taking a medication 17 years ago and never again would be stretching it I think,
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...as Bruce noted, it's not the medication which is the issue, it's the underlying diagnosis. Once made, the diagnosis stays with you forever until you can prove otherwise with all that expensive neuropsych testing and evaluation.
 
Located in SE-Iowa, I didn't imagine I would find away of getting around the testing for ADHD. Although, I thought I had read something on the internet of someone being able to get the tests done for under 1k. Sure hoped that I would hear some sort of victory story of getting around the the 2k. It's a lot of money to spend without any sort of guarentee.

The sleeping pills were one year ago in 2012.
 
Unregistered said:
... of getting around the the 2k. It's a lot of money to spend without any sort of guarantee..
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2 amu's is just a drop in the aviation bucket. Consider the ownership challenged where this amount is easily spent on pre-buys and "travel to" costs just to determine the "go forward" or "walk away" decision. And worse, the dreaded expensive surprise at the first annual.
 
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I actually recognize your writing style, and recognize that you've posted here before. But the FAA is not likely to change their position on this until the psychologists change their tune. Not likely to happen with the huge body of statistical data.

Your PVT instructor has no training in preparation for a medical exam. Being a CFI myself, I can tell you, he had none. Zero. He does know where part 67 is, and that's about it. So it's not reasonable to expect he could help you.....
 
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ah, hell, a script someone takes when they are EIGHT - and have ZERO ability to refuse, control or even the intelligence to discuss, comes along 20 years later as an adult - who is NOT on said medication or any medication for the alleged condition -

Something is seriously wrong with an organization that holds that against someone.

Now, if you had a IEP on which you got special helps and accommodations in school and you took advantage of that knowingly when you were old enough to know better - yeah that I can see because you took advantage of the disability or condition.

But the drugs people take as children to treat alleged psychoactive conditions that are stand alone - Oberstar left alot of years ago - its time to purge him too.

[edit - no one wants impaired or incompetent pilots - but - there needs to be some common sense resolution of these events where someone has a childhood/teen diagnosis - I think at LEAST that needs to be by a psych or neuro - and not a family doc or NP / school nurse.]
 
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comanchepilot said:
ah, hell, a script someone takes when they are EIGHT - and have ZERO ability to refuse, control or even the intelligence to discuss, comes along 20 years later as an adult - who is NOT on said medication or any medication for the alleged condition -

Something is seriously wrong with an organization that holds that against someone.
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In this case, Joe, I disagree with you . Something is seriously wrong with PARENTS who allow their kid to be "pilled" unless the evidence and expertise is COMPELLING. That was not the case with this young man. I might consider pilling a dog on advice of a vet, but a child of mine on advice of a local family doc (who doesn't even own a DSM 3)? I don't theeennk so.
Now, if you had a IEP on which you got special helps and accommodations in school and you took advantage of that knowingly when you were old enough to know better - yeah that I can see because you took advantage of the disability or condition.

But the drugs people take as children to treat alleged psychoactive conditions that are stand alone - Oberstar left alot of years ago - its time to purge him too.
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This predates Oberstar by a few years, Joe. DSM2, IIRC. Not much chance of it going away.
 
Ron Levy said:
...as Bruce noted, it's not the medication which is the issue, it's the underlying diagnosis. Once made, the diagnosis stays with you forever until you can prove otherwise with all that expensive neuropsych testing and evaluation.
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True, though with the amount of overdiagnosis of this diagnosis this is unfortunate, and I wonder how many pilots either lie on their medical or how many potential pilots are lost. If not for being born before the error of psychological disorder diagnosis for personality quirks I wonder how many famous pilots we regard in high esteem would have never made it past the medical for their ppl. Just wondering. Not arguing.
 
Bruce - not that I would ever disagree with the medical resolution - but parents who let their kids be pilled?

My gosh, man, there are parents who in the 90's LOBBIED for their kids to be drugged in order to get on the special ed list so they could get special help at school so they could get into better colleges by being successful with a disability. In that case the sins of the father [and mother] are definitely the problem of the child - in this case- the record is what the record is.

I'm just saying in my decade serving on boards of education between 1997 and 2007 I heard tales on both sides of the table that would curl your toes . . .and now there are kids who are carrying around the burden of a diagnosis done by a school nurse, pushed to a doc who would just write the Rx to make the teachers happy. You want names?
 
bbchien said:
In this case, Joe, I disagree with you . Something is seriously wrong with PARENTS who allow their kid to be "pilled" unless the evidence and expertise is COMPELLING. That was not the case with this young man. I might consider pilling a dog on advice of a vet, but a child of mine on advice of a local family doc (who doesn't even own a DSM 3)? I don't theeennk so.This predates Oberstar by a few years, Joe. DSM2, IIRC. Not much chance of it going away.
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Bruce,

Having experienced this in my family it is difficult to fight the "experts" when making some diagnosis. I do not know if you remember my background, but I fought the fight and lost. The only way it was stopped was when my daughter asked me to force the issue as she did not like what the medications did to her. There unfortunately is a lot of pressure on parents to "pill" their "disruptive" kids and most parents do not have the knowledge, inclination, or knowhow to stop it. I think we can all agree that the Autism Spectrum Diagnosis are overused, probably more so than any other overused diagnosis in medicine, and the reasons are multiple. However, I find more fault in the pediatric neurologist, pediatric psychologists, and school officials that promote this than in the unsuspecting and trusting parents. In most cases the long term effects are minimal, however, in some cases that is not true. Unfortunately, it is often the misdiagnosed or overdiagnosed kid that suffers. Unfortunately, other methods of helping "disruptive kids" are not explored, as without these official labels there is no money to provide such treatments.
Doug
 
douglas393 said:
True, though with the amount of overdiagnosis of this diagnosis this is unfortunate, and I wonder how many pilots either lie on their medical or how many potential pilots are lost. If not for being born before the error of psychological disorder diagnosis for personality quirks I wonder how many famous pilots we regard in high esteem would have never made it past the medical for their ppl. Just wondering. Not arguing.
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Under Federal Law, your diagnosis and prescription codes are no longer defined as part of your medical record. Thus the medical bureaus can find anything, very rapidly.

I once tired to help an aviator out, from afar, online. This was maybe seven yeara go....Dr. B___n at FAA was very understanding and faxed me authority to issue. Then he called back SEVEN minutes later, and asked if I had issued. No, I hadn't. He said that's good, because the guy had a coronary artery bypass code in his insurance record and had never reported bypass. It the tech world, the guy is a famous guy. It could have been quite bad, had I sent the guy a certificate on that authorization.

You can't lie anymore. It gets found out. When you do, then they send the "show cause, why we should not revoke your pilot certificate" letter. PILOT cert, not just the medical.

This was further codified in the "affordable healthcare act of 2012". There, nurse practitioners who have about 2 weeks of "reading about it" will be making the diagnoses....just like they think they do now. Wonderful.........not.
 
bbchien said:
Under Federal Law, your diagnosis and prescription codes are no longer defined as part of your medical record. Thus the medical bureaus can find anything, very rapidly.

I once tired to help an aviator out, from afar, online. This was maybe seven yeara go....Dr. B___n at FAA was very understanding and faxed me authority to issue. Then he called back SEVEN minutes later, and asked if I had issued. No, I hadn't. He said that's good, because the guy had a coronary artery bypass code in his insurance record and had never reported bypass. It the tech world, the guy is a famous guy. It could have been quite bad, had I sent the guy a certificate on that authorization.

You can't lie anymore. It gets found out. When you do, then they send the "show cause, why we should not revoke your pilot certificate" letter. PILOT cert, not just the medical.

This was further codified in the "affordable healthcare act of 2012". There, nurse practitioners who have about 2 weeks of "reading about it" will be making the diagnoses....just like they think they do now. Wonderful.........not.
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And as a result more and more potential pilots will lose their ability to learn to fly because of misdiagnosis, or overdiagnosis. The problem lies in that many of the medical issues and diagnosis that appear to be quite succinct are shaded and indistinct, and what is ADHD for one is an active normal child for another. Unfortunately, with medicine turning more and more to protocols, and flow diagrams for diagnosis, and removing the physician from the diagnostic paradigm the days of the physician making the correct diagnosis as opposed to the most convenient diagnosis are going to disappear. Oh well.
 
douglas393 said:
And as a result more and more potential pilots will lose their ability to learn to fly because of misdiagnosis, or overdiagnosis. The problem lies in that many of the medical issues and diagnosis that appear to be quite succinct are shaded and indistinct, and what is ADHD for one is an active normal child for another. Unfortunately, with medicine turning more and more to protocols, and flow diagrams for diagnosis, and removing the physician from the diagnostic paradigm the days of the physician making the correct diagnosis as opposed to the most convenient diagnosis are going to disappear. Oh well.
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President Obama and the insurance companies wish it so.

This is the "walmart" model of medical care.
 
bbchien said:
President Obama and the insurance companies wish it so.

This is the "walmart" model of medical care.
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And I would add as does the average american. However, when crap hits the fan because of misdiagnosis and wrong treatment guess who will have to pick up the pieces, and then get sued for not fixing it.
 
I'm thinking it would be nice for the consumer to get his own summary "Health Report" from these same sources, sort of like a Credit Report, and have the opportunity to review what has been said about him.
 
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