Simulator time

[cocolos]

I am thinking of going for IFR and had a couple of questions to those that have done so:
How much of your IFR training was done in a simulator? Did you already have the 50 hr XC PIC time? I am seeing if I could plan out to do it in 3 months +- a month or so.

 

[hpux735]

I'm just starting out. My program is the Jeppesen part 141. This seems like a decent system as it allows you to avoid the requirement 50 hours of cross country. I think it's a 35 hour program and 10 of those ours can be in a PC-FTD (PC Flight Training Device, like flight sim). I'm intending to use most all of those hours. Sim time is only $20, and there's the advantage of being able to just reset the simulation and hone down on an approach or hold or whatever.

 

[flyingron]

PIC brings a desktop simulator to their students (an ancient ATC-610 when I did it, but I hear they're going to the arguably worse Redbirds these days). We used it for one morning session to explain scanning and their command-performance flight control settings. It was used sparingly a couple of days further to teach holds and ADF use (I have no ADF in my plane). But after the first few days, we left it in the box.

 

[ajstoner21]

PIC brings a desktop simulator to their students (an ancient ATC-610 when I did it, but I hear they're going to the arguably worse Redbirds these days). We used it for one morning session to explain scanning and their command-performance flight control settings. It was used sparingly a couple of days further to teach holds and ADF use (I have no ADF in my plane). But after the first few days, we left it in the box.

Not trying to hijacked the thread but, Worse redbird? Why do you say that? I am not agreeing or disagreeing, just curious.

 

[poadeleted20]

How much of your IFR training was done in a simulator?

None when I did it in 1971, but sims were not as available as they are today. For my work at PIC, we used to use pretty much the full 20 hours we were allowed for the ATC-610 FTD's we used to use, with the other 17 hours of instrument time (figuring starting with 3 hours of instrument time from PP) coming in the plane (usually taking about 23 hours of flight time). Now we've switched to ATD's and that limits us to only 10 hours toward the requried 40. I'm still finding we do 12 hours or more on the sim in order to learn the material, but only 10 count towards the rating, so we have to make sure the trainee gets at least 27 instrument hours in the plane to go with the 3 hours from PP plus the 10 hours on the ATD to get the total of 40.

Did you already have the 50 hr XC PIC time?

I did, and most of my trainees today do, too (or at least close). If you're doing an intensive program like the 10-day course we do at PIC, you won't have time to build more than 10-15 hours of XC time during the program without interfering with the flow of the program. If you're doing it over several months, having the hours up front is less important as you can build that time in parallel with your IR program.

I am seeing if I could plan out to do it in 3 months +- a month or so.

That's mostly a question of availability of both you and your instructor.

 

[poadeleted20]

PIC brings a desktop simulator to their students (an ancient ATC-610 when I did it, but I hear they're going to the arguably worse Redbirds these days).

The 610's have been retired, and we are now using a few Elite PI-135's plus an increasing number of Fly This Sim "Touch Trainers."
http://www.flythissim.com/touchtrainer.aspx
The TT has the advantage of being more flexible for various avionics sets and cockpit configurations, including both yoke and side-stick systems. PIC plans to have a TT in the hands of each instructor in the coming months, just as we each had our own 610. That will save on shipping them back and forth all over the place, which is both expensive and hard on the sims.

 

[cocolos]

What if my instrument panel is not normal 6 pack. Would something like Precision Flight Controls with ELITE 6.0 software PCATD be customized to fit the same setup?

 

[poadeleted20]

What if my instrument panel is not normal 6 pack. Would something like Precision Flight Controls with ELITE 6.0 software PCATD be customized to fit the same setup?

What do you mean "not normal 6 pack"? The Touch Trainer handles the glass panels (G1000 and Avidyne Entegra), so that's what we bring when that's what the client has. The Elite handles the stanard 6-pack with pretty much any standard nav/comm or Garmin 430 set-up. If you've got a really old pre-standard-T random arrangement of classic instruments, we can't duplicate that, but I think the stanard-T arrangement is close enough to be effective for our purposes, and there really is nothing at all which duplicates one of those "shotgun" panels (so-called because it looks like the instruments were fired into the panel out of a shotgun).

 

[cocolos]

I mean my altimeter is in the bottom left and below that is my VSI and my turn coordinator is below my attitude indicator.

 

[poadeleted20]

I mean my altimeter is in the bottom left and below that is my VSI and my turn coordinator is below my attitude indicator.

Yup -- "shotgun panel." Must be a pretty old panel -- pre-68 or so. No way to duplicate it on any modern sim around (sim manufacturers don't have enough demand to do it), but we've dealt with that before, and it isn't a showstopper. Your scan will adjust. Only alternative is finding an old WWII-vintage Link trainer where that sort of thing was "normal," and then other issues arise.

 

[cocolos]

I guess it will be good. I won't be on that airplane forever so might be good to learn to adjust my scan.

 

[poadeleted20]

Don't worry -- between a "shotgun" panel like yours and a standard-T, your scan will take care of itself.

 

[flyingron]

Not trying to hijacked the thread but, Worse redbird? Why do you say that? I am not agreeing or disagreeing, just curious.

I don't like them. At the base their flight model, which appears to be cribbed from MS flight simulator, isn't very good. There is some discussion as to whether this thing ever got legitimately certified due to differences between what they told the FAA and what they actually did.

Any of the higher form of avionics (such as their G1000) stuff is so divergent from real life, that it's worse than useless.

 

[flyingron]

PIC plans to have a TT in the hands of each instructor in the coming months, just as we each had our own 610. That will save on shipping them back and forth all over the place, which is both expensive and hard on the sims.

Cool...I bet they're lighter than the 610 too
Don't want to be dragging that Link trainer around either.

 

[cocolos]

I'm just starting out. My program is the Jeppesen part 141. This seems like a decent system as it allows you to avoid the requirement 50 hours of cross country. I think it's a 35 hour program and 10 of those ours can be in a PC-FTD (PC Flight Training Device, like flight sim). I'm intending to use most all of those hours. Sim time is only $20, and there's the advantage of being able to just reset the simulation and hone down on an approach or hold or whatever.

I am thinking of going that route. I am trying to work with a $700 a month budget.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm just starting out. My program is the Jeppesen part 141. This seems like a decent system as it allows you to avoid the requirement 50 hours of cross country. I think it's a 35 hour program and 10 of those ours can be in a PC-FTD (PC Flight Training Device, like flight sim).

I'm guessing it's really a "PC-ATD" (Personal Computer -Aviation Training Device). "FTD" stands for "Flight Training Device," which is a different sort of gadget and which is normally approved for up to 20 hours of the required 40 hours of instrument time under Part 61, or up to 40% of the required 35 in a 141 program. An Aviation Training Device is allowed 10 hours towards the 40 hours of instrument time under Part 61, but Part 141 limits ATD's to only 10% of the required 35 hours. You might want to confirm the details on this with the school.

(b) For the use of flight simulators or flight training devices--
(1) The course may include training in a flight simulator or flight training device, provided it is representative of the aircraft for which the course is approved, meets the requirements of this paragraph, and the
training is given by an authorized instructor.
(2) Credit for training in a flight simulator that meets the requirements of Sec. 141.41(a) cannot exceed 50 percent of the total flight training hour requirements of the course or of this section, whichever is less.
(3) Credit for training in a flight training device that meets the requirements of Sec. 141.41(b) cannot exceed 40 percent of the total flight training hour requirements of the course or of this section, whichever is less.
(4) Credit for training in flight simulators and flight training devices, if used in combination, cannot exceed 50 percent of the total flight training hour requirements of the course or of this section, whichever is less. However, credit for training in a flight training device cannot exceed the limitation provided for in paragraph (b)(3) of this section.
(5) Credit for training in an approved aviation training device cannot exceed 10 percent of the total flight training hour requirements of the course or of this section, whichever is less.
(6) Credit for training in flight simulators, flight training devices, and aviation training devices, if used in combination, cannot exceed 50 percent of the total flight training hour requirements of the course or of this section, whichever is less. However, credit for training in an aviation training device cannot exceed the limitation provided under paragraph (b)(5) of this section.

I'm intending to use most all of those hours. Sim time is only $20,

$20 per hour for ATD training sounds rather cheap. Does that include the instructor?

and there's the advantage of being able to just reset the simulation and hone down on an approach or hold or whatever.

The flexibility of a flight simulation device such as an ATD or FTD provides great improvements in training efficiency and effectiveness when used by an instructor who knows how to use it properly.

 

[Terry]

It took me three tries before I called PIC and had it finished and done in 7 days. I originally had him for 5 days but I needed more work so my CFII stayed another 2 days.

Best decision I ever made. He brought his own simulator and most the time was in the airplane and that is where I needed to be.

Terry