Simulator Questions

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Posting because my account is still not activated and I cannot post in the flight training section.

I scheduled my IFR checkride and written in April, I figured if I scheduled it now I will see it through. I have called many places in the area looking for flight simulators to practice approaches and procedures. Two places want $150/$185 per hour with an instructor. This seems high considering I am renting an IFR equipped 172M for $125 per/hr wet with an instructor and a 430/496/XM equipped Arrow for $200 with instructor.

Are these prices out of line? I was expected around $100 per hour with an instructor. One of the places charges $70 /hr for the instructor!!! For these prices I might as well stick with the 172M I'm currently flying and log the hours!

If anyone knows of anywhere in the Charlotte, NC area with a nice simulator that has reasonable rates please let me know, I'm even willing to drive a few hours if the price is right. I'm considering abandoning the idea of a simulator all together. Seems like a rip.
 
$70/hour for top quality instrument flight training isn't grossly out of line -- PIC charges $595/day for its instructors, although that includes unlimited sim use, too (typically 2-3 hours a day on the sim, the rest being ground and flight training time).

OTOH, $150-185/hour for a typical flight school flight simulation training device with instructor (usually an AATD, but could be BATD or FTD) seems rather higher than I've ever seen before. But on the third hand, some of the modern top-level devices from Redbird cost almost $100K, while some Frasca FTD's are up near a quarter mil, and that's a lot of investment to recoup. What sort of device are they using?
 
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Redbirds. I'm unsure of the model but I think I looked them up a couple months ago and there were in the era of $70,000-$80,000.

I guess I cannot justify that kind of cost when I'm actually flying a 172M with instructor for $125 an hour. I understand that you can use the simulator to shoot approach after approach whereas in the aircraft this may not be a possibility, but for a difference of $25-$50 an hour I can fly the real airplane longer per dollar and it probably comes close to break even when looking at the cost of each approach.

If you haven't been able to figure it out already, I'm on a very tight budget. It's taken me over 2 years to get to this point, I cannot afford to make a mistake like I did the first time around (Thought I could afford to fly helicopters, turns out they cost a lot, who knew?)
 
It may seem that way, but it really isn't. I can put you through three approaches in the sim in the same time it takes to do one in the airplane because I can eliminate the "drone" time going back to the IAF. I can also stop, talk, back up, and do it again when something isn't going well, and that dramatically improves training efficiency. The sims about which we are talking will never replace a real airplane for IR training, but I can still teach you a lot faster and more efficiently with the use of a sim properly integrated into the overall training program.
 
I haven't used it yet, but my SoCal school acquired a Redbird AATD several months ago. They charge $89 per hour for the simulator. An instructor is $65 per hour so, all in, it's $154 per hour.
 
Remember, it's about TIME.

On the whole with simulator based training you are going to spend less TIME overall in instruction. You'll be able to practice lots of things in the sim alone, plus it doesn't care what the weather is like, is the plane down for maint. or if your instructor is sick that day. Get in the sim, and practice day or night.

So, while the pricing structure "per hour" seem similar, you need to multiply that amount by say 40 hours. Now that little bit of difference starts to add up quickly. Plus, as Ron said if you're getting an instructor that is a top notch instrument trainer, pay it gladly! It's worth every dollar.
 
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So how many hours should I expect to spend in the simulator prior to my actual IFR dual flight time to feel proficient? I have 9 days blocked out starting April 10th for my IFR dual time as well as the checkride. I'm currently spending between 2-3 hours a night studying for the written and oral and I am flying about an hour a weekend (not necessarily IFR stuff). The simulator is located about 2-3 hours away from me and I work a pretty full schedule Mon-Fri. so it would need to be a weekend trip sort of thing.

I just want to go into April feeling confident under the hood while dealing with Approaches, SID's, and ATC communication at the IFR level. It all seems like a lot to take in at the moment and I absolutely suck and copying clearances. I'm using the CRAFT acronym but just cannot seem to keep pace with some of these fast talking controllers. I do not have a lot of experience with ATC in general.
 
Unregistered said:
So how many hours should I expect to spend in the simulator prior to my actual IFR dual flight time to feel proficient?
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There is a big YMMV variable depending on the person to answer this question. I did IFR training with Ron Levy and the ELITE sim that PIC sent along. And while I learned a lot in that environment, I didn't get to the lightbulb over my head to get beyond 60 watts until we were out doing it in the aircraft. Even now, while I understand a lot, "feeling proficient" requires lots of real world practice.

I just want to go into April feeling confident under the hood while dealing with Approaches, SID's, and ATC communication at the IFR level.
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When I was ramping up, I tried to ride right seat as often as possible on IFR flights with pilots who didn't mind answering questions and explaining what was going on.

I also flew a lot of longer XC's (200nm +) using Flight Following. That really helped with gaining comfort on in flight comms "in the system". When I heard instructions to others that I didn't immediately grokk, I would copy them down and look them up and review once the flight was over.

It all seems like a lot to take in at the moment and I absolutely suck and copying clearances. I'm using the CRAFT acronym but just cannot seem to keep pace with some of these fast talking controllers. I do not have a lot of experience with ATC in general.
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Jump onto LiveATC and find a Clearance Delivery frequency that's reasonably active. Then listen and practice.

During training, a good instructor will make clearance copying part of the lesson plan. Ron did and his tips and tricks were valuable.
 
Good information, thanks for the replies everyone. I appreciate the advice
 
Unregistered said:
So how many hours should I expect to spend in the simulator prior to my actual IFR dual flight time to feel proficient?
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Properly done, it doesn't work that way. For each stage of IR training, you should start with ground training on methods, procedures, and techniques, then get into the sim with an instructor to learn how to do them, then finally practice them in flight. Once you have mastered the tasks of that stage, you move to the next stage and repeat the cycle on the next set of tasks. IOWA, it's an integrated syllabus of ground, sim, and flight training, not doing it all in the sim before doing anything in the airplane.

I have 9 days blocked out starting April 10th for my IFR dual time as well as the checkride. I'm currently spending between 2-3 hours a night studying for the written and oral and I am flying about an hour a weekend (not necessarily IFR stuff). The simulator is located about 2-3 hours away from me and I work a pretty full schedule Mon-Fri. so it would need to be a weekend trip sort of thing.

I just want to go into April feeling confident under the hood while dealing with Approaches, SID's, and ATC communication at the IFR level. It all seems like a lot to take in at the moment and I absolutely suck and copying clearances. I'm using the CRAFT acronym but just cannot seem to keep pace with some of these fast talking controllers. I do not have a lot of experience with ATC in general.
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Your plan is a bit unusual. Most folks do it the way I described above rather than trying to learn it all on their own before starting the actual IR training with an instrument instructor.
 
I know its unusual but its out of necessity.

There are no reliable flight instructors in my area that I have found or that have reasonable rates. My helicopter private pilot experience was less than optimal, my ASEL ppl wasn't much better. I know a very good instructor a few hours away but he is booked every day for the next 4 months, it took $1,000 to reserve his time but he has a 98% first time pass rate for first time instrument students and everyone I know who has gone through his program say its top notch

I have tried to schedule time at local flight schools but no one will accommodate my schedule (mon-fri 5:30pm-10:00pm and all day sat-sun). The flight instructors around here only want to work 9-5 mon-fri so that they can get their 1,500 hours and go fly right seat, they don't care about the students or have any passion for instructing it seems. The attitudes are horrible.

I cannot give up my job or move to part time, I would not be able to afford aviation, its taken me years to work myself into this position so that I can afford to get my tickets and enjoy aviating every weekend.
 
I actually contacted an instructor I didn't know a few weeks back who was advertising IFR ground training classes. He told me it was not worth his time to drive to the airport for a single student and that if I could get 4 or 5 people to pre-pay for ground instruction that he might consider holding a class. I do not know anyone else working on their instrument rating so that option was out the window.

I'm currently driving 2 hours one-way to go to a small grass strip to fly a 172M with a young flight instructor. He is quite good but also in college and the scheduling is difficult, he is essentially only available for a short time on Sundays hence the reason I am only flying an hour or two a week.
 
Unregistered said:
I know its unusual but its out of necessity.

There are no reliable flight instructors in my area that I have found or that have reasonable rates. My helicopter private pilot experience was less than optimal, my ASEL ppl wasn't much better. I know a very good instructor a few hours away but he is booked every day for the next 4 months, it took $1,000 to reserve his time but he has a 98% first time pass rate for first time instrument students and everyone I know who has gone through his program say its top notch

I have tried to schedule time at local flight schools but no one will accommodate my schedule (mon-fri 5:30pm-10:00pm and all day sat-sun). The flight instructors around here only want to work 9-5 mon-fri so that they can get their 1,500 hours and go fly right seat, they don't care about the students or have any passion for instructing it seems. The attitudes are horrible.

I cannot give up my job or move to part time, I would not be able to afford aviation, its taken me years to work myself into this position so that I can afford to get my tickets and enjoy aviating every weekend.
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Too bad you're not in Nebraska. I would have no problems with doing 7PM instrument lessons. Hell I've done instrument ratings where we did most of the flying after midnight.
 
I can assure you that once I get through this mess I will earn my CFI CFII and bring afternoon and evening flight training to this area. I absolutely love to fly, regardless of time of day. I just never imaged it would be so hard to find good instruction in Charlotte, that's half the reason I moved here in the first place.
 
Unregistered said:
Posting because my account is still not activated and I cannot post in the flight training section.

I scheduled my IFR checkride and written in April, I figured if I scheduled it now I will see it through. I have called many places in the area looking for flight simulators to practice approaches and procedures. Two places want $150/$185 per hour with an instructor. This seems high considering I am renting an IFR equipped 172M for $125 per/hr wet with an instructor and a 430/496/XM equipped Arrow for $200 with instructor.

Are these prices out of line? I was expected around $100 per hour with an instructor. One of the places charges $70 /hr for the instructor!!! For these prices I might as well stick with the 172M I'm currently flying and log the hours!

If anyone knows of anywhere in the Charlotte, NC area with a nice simulator that has reasonable rates please let me know, I'm even willing to drive a few hours if the price is right. I'm considering abandoning the idea of a simulator all together. Seems like a rip.
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That's high

Say 50hr for CFII max

40-50hr for the simulator max
 
Isn't ScottD in Charlotte?

Flying Ron.... you're not that far north of this guy... any instructor recco's?
 
^ exactly what I was thinking, maybe $100-$110 per hour with an instructor in a Redbird. Nope. Just called another flight school with a Redbird FMX. $89 for the simulator, $50 for the instructor. $140 isn't near as bad as $180, however, I spoke with the CFII and I have a single concern. He speaks somewhat broken English with a heavy accent, I had a very hard time communicating with him over the phone. This concerns me, communication is obviously paramount in the IFR and training world and I have a feeling we would go back and forth trying to understand each other.
 
Unregistered said:
^ exactly what I was thinking, maybe $100-$110 per hour with an instructor in a Redbird. Nope. Just called another flight school with a Redbird FMX. $89 for the simulator, $50 for the instructor. $140 isn't near as bad as $180, however, I spoke with the CFII and I have a single concern. He speaks somewhat broken English with a heavy accent, I had a very hard time communicating with him over the phone. This concerns me, communication is obviously paramount in the IFR and training world and I have a feeling we would go back and forth trying to understand each other.
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You want someone with some real IFR/IMC time

Honestly getting a yoke and pedals and MS flight sim X and hiring your own CFII will probably get you further.
 
Well, like I said, I have already booked time with an instructor. 30,000+ hour Gold Seal, NAFI Master, ect. ect. instructor who has very good reviews and claims a 98% first time pass rate with his accelerated 9 day instrument course. He was booked from the beginning of January through April 10th so I went ahead and booked the 10th-19th. He claims we will fly 50 hours, all XC, in simulated and real IFR conditions while logging 37 hours of instrument time. It's a fairly pricy endeavor but he is cheaper than any of the local Charlotte flight schools. Most of these places near Charlotte want around $10,000 for the instrument rating once all flight time and ground time is logged. I am paying about $8,300 for the course, including the written and checkride fee's, ground instruction and all flight time.

I have always stayed away from any sort of accelerated course but I have the time off and the money saved so this seems to be my best solution, I will be traveling and staying in a hotel for 9 days though. I figure if I study hard and practice now it will ease things a little during my training, hence the want to get in a simulator.

I actually have FSX, no controls and no computer capable of running the program though, it crashes my computer for whatever reason.

I have been completely screwed in my past flight training experiences, I think many can relate. I'm apprehensive to spend more money but I want to have my commercial by this summer.
 
Maybe I should get a new PC and give X-Plane and Pilot Edge a try? Seems like people prefer the flight model of X-Plane and the realism of Pilot Edge for IFR training? Might be a decent investment but sure as hell beats paying these Redbird prices
 
Redbird runs MS flight sim.

Doesn't really matter which one you pick, you're just learning procedures, compared to getting your PPL, instrument has way less to do with flying, as it does with procedures.
 
$8300 isn't out of range. But budget for a bit more so the cash is there. Overages are to be expected.

One thing you can be doing now to be successful for this intensive training is to get the written exam over and done. The by product of this, in addition to getting this key step done, will be a good base knowledge and understanding of the concepts the CFII you booked will be teaching.
 
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Unregistered said:
Maybe I should get a new PC and give X-Plane and Pilot Edge a try? Seems like people prefer the flight model of X-Plane and the realism of Pilot Edge for IFR training? Might be a decent investment but sure as hell beats paying these Redbird prices
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Instructors like Ron Levy are better suited to comment on Flight Sim use during training, including which ones. Keep in mind one benefit of using the appropriately certified ones is that time in the sim can count toward the required training time. Thus saving money and wear/tear on aircraft.
 
Unregistered said:
Maybe I should get a new PC and give X-Plane and Pilot Edge a try? Seems like people prefer the flight model of X-Plane and the realism of Pilot Edge for IFR training? Might be a decent investment but sure as hell beats paying these Redbird prices
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PilotEdge and FSX or X-Plane are a great tool, extremely cost-effective and highly recommended, but IMO only make sense once you have the theory down pat (ideally have passed the written) and have taken sufficient amount of instruction (on sims or in airplanes) from a CFII to feel reasonably confident flying in the system.
 
Unregistered said:
Redbirds. I'm unsure of the model but I think I looked them up a couple months ago and there were in the era of $70,000-$80,000.

I guess I cannot justify that kind of cost when I'm actually flying a 172M with instructor for $125 an hour. I understand that you can use the simulator to shoot approach after approach whereas in the aircraft this may not be a possibility, but for a difference of $25-$50 an hour I can fly the real airplane longer per dollar and it probably comes close to break even when looking at the cost of each approach.

If you haven't been able to figure it out already, I'm on a very tight budget. It's taken me over 2 years to get to this point, I cannot afford to make a mistake like I did the first time around (Thought I could afford to fly helicopters, turns out they cost a lot, who knew?)
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At those prices the simulator only makes sense if you find yourself having trouble working out a particular procedure. Then the ability to stop and reset becomes a real time saver and makes the sim worth 3 times as much in training value. I would do the first 30 in the planes you are going to fly IFR, then evaluate your progress and discuss with your instructor if he thinks there are any issues that would benefit from some sim time, then come up with a plan to maximize the time in the sim so you get the most for the extra cost.

If you aren't having problems, just do it all in the planes.
 
RotorDude said:
PilotEdge and FSX or X-Plane are a great tool, extremely cost-effective and highly recommended, but IMO only make sense once you have the theory down pat (ideally have passed the written) and have taken sufficient amount of instruction (on sims or in airplanes) from a CFII to feel reasonably confident flying in the system.
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I have 25 hours logged with a CFII in helicopters, that is, before he called and said he quit the flight school and that pretty much ended my helicopter training all together. That was years ago, frankly I don't remember much, but I'm hitting the books hard and if I have a question I ask the CFI I'm currently working with. He cannot give me instruction but he is instrument rated so we just talk IFR occasionally.

We will see how it goes I guess, I'm feeling a little better about it now that I have had some more options presented to me. Thanks again for all the input.
 
imho these type of sims only add value when the weather does not permit flying. at the stated price point i rather fly the airplane and log the extra flight training hours. getting right in the airplane is a different animal than getting it right on the sim. you need to get it right on the plane anyways.
 
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