Signing an old Bill of Sale?

[Diana]

Just got an interesting call. A gentleman from Fort Worth is buying my old airplane (Texas Taildragger) from someone who bought it from the salvage yard who bought it at an auction from my insurance company. I wrecked it in 1998, and lost track of it after someone bought it from the salvage yard. Anyway, the gentleman said I signed the Bill of Sale when I signed it over to Avemco, but Tom didn't sign it. Now he said that Tom needs to sign it since it was a co-ownership. I really don't remember signing it, but that was a long time ago.

Anyway, would there be any repercussions (for us) for signing it over to the new owner now, since the airplane has changed hands so many times?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Diana:
If the insurance company paid you for it and took possession, you shouldn't have owned it after that point IMO. The insurance company most probably had you sign a settlement agreement of some sort that stated that. Once you executed that to their satisfaction, you should have been done. If the insurer came back, that would be one thing. For some third party with which you have no relationship, that would be another thing. I'd be consulting with my adviser at the cost of the person making the request, or just stay out of it.

Best,

Dave

 

[Diana]

Thanks Dave, that makes sense.

I just found something interesting while going through all my old papers on N1239Y, and found a copy I had made of the Bill of Sale we had to sign when the insurance company took it. We both signed it and the company made it clear on their cover letter that we both had to sign it. The guy that called said only my name is on it.

The guy that called is based out of FWS, btw.

 

[mikea]

Thanks Dave, that makes sense.

I just found something interesting while going through all my old papers on N1239Y, and found a copy I had made of the Bill of Sale we had to sign when the insurance company took it. We both signed it and the company made it clear on their cover letter that we both had to sign it. The guy that called said only my name is on it.

The guy that called is based out of FWS, btw.

How about the FAA form? or it that it?

I can't imagine what the harm would be to sign the old form, but then I don't have a really good imagination.

It seems to me that if a couple of entities along the way transfered title after you did THOSE are the ones on the hook if something was wrong.

 

[KennyFlys]

Just provide a copy of the bill you have. That would seem harmless; certainly more so than providing an original signature on any other document, copy or original, regarding a transaction so old.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

If a title company called and was trying to re-construct proper title (chain of title) and the representation from you was a bill of sale was provided to the insurance company on such and such date; that's one thing. To sign a bill of sale when one isn't the owner of the plane can create liability. An affidavit sounds more appropriate. I'd want someone that knows how all this works to be telling me what I can do without incurring any liability; last thing you want is some innocent third party getting harmed because someone talked you into doing something wrong.

If the guy is trying to cure a problem, I agree with Kenny, no harm in showing or providing a copy of the original bill of sale, but you don't know who this person is and what they are doing, do you? I'd much rather work through a reputable agency that knows all about this stuff or on the advise or proper counsel. Good, long time friend, would be another story. If the person took the time to explain why it's needed and there was an obvious error that needs to be corrected in existing documentation; that's one thing. To execute a new bill of sale when you are not the owner, could be quite another.

Best,

Dave

 

[AdamZ]

I'd just show a copy of the old bill of sale.

 

[poadeleted20]

I agree with David -- you can't sell someone an airplane you no longer own; I believe that's called "theft by deception," or "fraud," or something like that. If the current buyer has a titling problem, tell this person to take it up with the current seller, i.e., the insurance company, not you (not your plane, not your problem). If the insurance company needs a new bill of sale, they can come to you to get a new bill of sale selling them the plane (again) and returning the original bill of sale you signed, and then they can sell it to the current buyer. If the copy of the bill of sale you kept shows you both really sign the bill of sale, tell the insurance company what's going on, because there's probably hanky panky involved, and if that's true, they will inform the proper authorities.

 

[mikea]

I agree with David -- you can't sell someone an airplane you no longer own; I believe that's called "theft by deception," or "fraud," or something like that. If the current buyer has a titling problem, tell this person to take it up with the current seller, i.e., the insurance company, not you (not your plane, not your problem). If the insurance company needs a new bill of sale, they can come to you to get a new bill of sale selling them the plane (again) and returning the original bill of sale you signed, and then they can sell it to the current buyer. If the copy of the bill of sale you kept shows you both really sign the bill of sale, tell the insurance company what's going on, because there's probably hanky panky involved, and if that's true, they will inform the proper authorities.

Maybe my imagination is better than I thought it was. One thing that could be going on is having Diana and Tom signing a bill of sale selling the plane directly to the new guy, bypassing the insurance company and/or salvage and... viola! NO DAMAGE HISTORY.

 

[Diana]

Well, the guy said he'd mail it for me to have Tom sign, so it will be interesting to see what it looks like when it comes in the mail. He said I signed it, but not Tom. But, the copy I have shows both our signatures. I still don't get it. Well, anyway, we've decided not to sign anything.

Thanks for your input guys.

 

[KennyFlys]

I smell a sardine hidden in the jalapeños!

 

[mikea]

Well, the guy said he'd mail it for me to have Tom sign, so it will be interesting to see what it looks like when it comes in the mail. He said I signed it, but not Tom. But, the copy I have shows both our signatures. I still don't get it. Well, anyway, we've decided not to sign anything.

Thanks for your input guys.

We gotta hear how the document you get sent matches up with the copy you have, if it does at all!

 

[Tom-D]

Well, the guy said he'd mail it for me to have Tom sign, so it will be interesting to see what it looks like when it comes in the mail. He said I signed it, but not Tom. But, the copy I have shows both our signatures. I still don't get it. Well, anyway, we've decided not to sign anything.

Thanks for your input guys.

The title changes will be on file at OKC records office, have the present owner get the CD and see where the title stopped changing ownership.

The FAA must have clear chain of ownership before they will transfere the title to any one, If the new owner has a bill of sale from any one else it is no longer your problem. you executed a title change when the insurance company paid you for it. after that it is the insurance company and the new owners problem.

But here is where it can get complicated, many times the insurance company will not give the title to the aircraft to the salvage company. They keep the title and give the salvage company a receipt for their money, and they turn in the "N" number to the FAA. Then when the salvage company tries to sell the aircaft as a rebuilder there is no title to go with it. nor is the "N" number on the aircraft any good.

This can get really messy, I'd stand clear !

 

[mikea]

...
But here is where it can get complicated, many times the insurance company will not give the title to the aircraft to the salvage company. They keep the title and give the salvage company a receipt for their money, and they turn in the "N" number to the FAA. Then when the salvage company tries to sell the aircaft as a rebuilder there is no title to go with it. nor is the "N" number on the aircraft any good.

This can get really messy, I'd stand clear !

I would imagine that is a brick wall so the insurance company can't have any liability for anyone flying the aircraft in the future.

Can they get the airworthiness certificate revoked, too, or does that go along with the N number being decommissioned.?

 

[poadeleted20]

Based on Tom's post, it sounds like maybe the insurance company did not reregistser the plane, but rather sold it to a salvage company which would normally break it up for parts. Now the buyer is trying to revive the plane by getting you to sign a bill of sale selling the buyer the plane, thus bypassing the insurance company's ownership. You are wise in choosing to remain clear of such a game.

 

[SCCutler]

I would not execute a "Bill of Sale," as at this point, it seems to me it'd be borderline fraud. I am still interested in hearing what it is that he sends to you to execute.

If it is legitimately something where he wants to satisfy someone simply that you claim no ownership interest in the plane, *now*, that could easily be accomplished with a quit-claim deed. If he needs proof that you executed the "Bill of Sale" at the time you conveyed to the carrier, you can do so with an affidavit proving-up a copy of the Bill of Sale you executed back then and which you still have in your possession.

I do not, without knowing more, jump to the conclusion that fraud or fishy stuff is up, but there's no need to buy new complication.

My $0.02.

---

edit: OBTW, aircraft do not have "titles," as we are accustomed to using that term in the automotive context, and the FAA does not issue "Titles" (which are legal and officially-issued documents proving ownership); rather, ownership is registered with the FAA, and lien and encumbrances can be recorded with them.

 

[Tom-D]

Based on Tom's post, it sounds like maybe the insurance company did not reregistser the plane, but rather sold it to a salvage company which would normally break it up for parts. Now the buyer is trying to revive the plane by getting you to sign a bill of sale selling the buyer the plane, thus bypassing the insurance company's ownership. You are wise in choosing to remain clear of such a game.

This is why I have always said the messed up title is the only thing you can't fix.

I have been involvd in 2 of these messes and the only way we got one flying was to remove the data tag and do the EXP route with new "N" number and the whole paper trail.

 

[Tom-D]

edit: OBTW, aircraft do not have "titles," as we are accustomed to using that term in the automotive context, and the FAA does not issue "Titles" (which are legal and officially-issued documents proving ownership); rather, ownership is registered with the FAA, and lien and encumbrances can be recorded with them.

That is exactly correct, and to add, the FAA will not record a change of ownership until all the bills of sale are recorded.

 

[ScottM]

I would not execute a "Bill of Sale," as at this point, it seems to me it'd be borderline fraud. I am still interested in hearing what it is that he sends to you to execute.

It would be EXACTLY fraud since she no longer owns the aircraft? Who is shown in the FAA database as owning it now? I think that is the bigger question.

 

[Tom-D]

Based on Tom's post, it sounds like maybe the insurance company did not reregistser the plane,.

They actually do have the FAA transfere ownership to the insurance company. then they shread the paperwork, so they can't change their minds at a later date.

I got involved with an A&P who had bought a C-170 fuselage from Omac Aircraft Salvage before they went out of business, he stripped his old fuselage after the accident, but forgot to get his old data tag from it before he crushed it and sent it to recycle.

So when he did the 337 for the major repair the FSDO airworthiness inspector came to inspect the job, and return to service, they took a look at the S/N of the aircraft and it did not match the "N" number or the airworthiness certificate, thus theyt threw a Hissy fit. I don't know if thay ever got that fixed or not. because he did not have a bill of sale for that aircraft S/N or an airworthiness certifcate for the aircraft, the "N" number was now applied to another aircraft. the more you rolled this over the bigger the mess became.

 

[SCCutler]

I would not execute a "Bill of Sale," as at this point, it seems to me it'd be borderline fraud. I am still interested in hearing what it is that he sends to you to execute.[/quoted] Would be EXACTLY fraud since she no longer owns the aircraft? Who is shown in the FAA database as owning it now? I think that is the bigger question.

The fraud would be execution of a Bill of Sale, now- she cannot now sell that which she no longer owns. Signing a bill of sale implies that you have something to sell.

 

[ScottM]

The fraud would be execution of a Bill of Sale, now- she cannot now sell that which she no longer owns. Signing a bill of sale implies that you have something to sell.

Yes I am saying that. You stated "borderline fraud". I say it is most certainly would be fraud.

 

[SCCutler]

Yes I am saying that. You stated "borderline fraud". I say it is most certainly would be fraud.

I still reserve judgment pending review of the actual document- it could be styled is such a way that it made clear it was a restatement of what actually occurred.

But not terribly likely. Best bet- avoid!

 

[KennyFlys]

I'd look at your copy and what they send with a spy glass. Something is not right. If I wanted clear title when buying salvage, I'd look to the current seller. If they don't have clear title, it's the seller's problem; not a previous owner.

Under no circumstance would I provide an original signature on anything but an affidavit and only then to the salvage company or insurance carrier.

 

[bjohnson]

Well, the guy said he'd mail it for me to have Tom sign, so it will be interesting to see what it looks like when it comes in the mail. He said I signed it, but not Tom. But, the copy I have shows both our signatures.

Since you have a copy of the Bill of Sale containing BOTH signatures it will be interesting to see if the copy he sends you has YOUR signature.

 

[docmirror]

Wow, a lot of conspiracy theorists here. Clearly signing a bill of sale from you to the new owner is not correct. But, I wouldn't hesistate to send him a certified copy of your bill of sale to the entity that purchased the aircraft from you. He can then do the dance with that party, and so on until he gets clear title all the way through.

My experience with cars is similar, but the FAA is prolly a bit stricter. If you are up-front with the reg authorities, almost anything can be done in terms of paperwork. I once had to post a public notice for 60 days on a vehicle and after that was completed, I got a new title, registration easily. I would think a salvage aircraft would be quite similar, just be straight with the FSDO, and show that the ownership trail is hacked at some point and why. If it's an insurance company(likely) then you'll have to deal with them to get them to release their interest in the plane. I don't think they could legally refuse, if you bought it on the up-and-up from a salvage yard, who bought it from the insurance company. As long as the conveyance clearly states the plane is non-airworthy(at the time of total), and you bought it as 'salvage' you can then do what you want with it.

 

[Tom-D]

Wow, a lot of conspiracy theorists here. Clearly signing a bill of sale from you to the new owner is not correct. But, I wouldn't hesistate to send him a certified copy of your bill of sale to the entity that purchased the aircraft from you. He can then do the dance with that party, and so on until he gets clear title all the way through.

My experience with cars is similar, but the FAA is prolly a bit stricter. If you are up-front with the reg authorities, almost anything can be done in terms of paperwork. I once had to post a public notice for 60 days on a vehicle and after that was completed, I got a new title, registration easily. I would think a salvage aircraft would be quite similar, just be straight with the FSDO, and show that the ownership trail is hacked at some point and why. If it's an insurance company(likely) then you'll have to deal with them to get them to release their interest in the plane. I don't think they could legally refuse, if you bought it on the up-and-up from a salvage yard, who bought it from the insurance company. As long as the conveyance clearly states the plane is non-airworthy(at the time of total), and you bought it as 'salvage' you can then do what you want with it.

What would you do when the FAA shows the insurance company as the last legal owner and they refuse to sign off ?

 

[Areeda]

Clearly signing a bill of sale from you to the new owner is not correct. But, I wouldn't hesistate to send him a certified copy of your bill of sale to the entity that purchased the aircraft from you.

I agree, sending him a notarized copy wouldn't be bad. I wouldn't sign any new documents.

However, if the document he wants Tom to sign is different from the one you two already signed I would call their local FSDO myself and discuss the attempted fraud.

Joe

 

[docmirror]

What would you do when the FAA shows the insurance company as the last legal owner and they refuse to sign off ?

Yep, I've had that happen on cars too. You can usually publish a 60 day notice of ownership statment, based on the vehicle/vessle/aircraft as abandoned and send a copy to the last published owner by certified mail. If they want to contest, then you get to go match up paperwork, if they don't contest, then you get the goods. When you go match up the paperwork, the putative 'owner' usually has papers showing he sold it to the next guy in line, but doesn't want to give up paper ownership. The states frown on this, as it clearly is a way to sell the asset for money, but retain ownership rights, which is a clear no-no.

If it's a case where the asset was not sold but stolen, then you loose your asset, plus you could face criminal charges depending on if you bought it in a good faith way, and paid existing market value on condition. For example, if you bought a 2005 Lamborghini in pristine condition for $10,000, it could be argued that a reasonable person would expect the car to be stolen. However, if you paid $180,000, and had a written bill of sale with the owners bonifides on it, you bought it in good faith, and all you loose is the money/asset.

In some states, cars older than 25 years go off the title system, and revert to a simple bill of sale, where no title history is checked. This is not the case with aircraft, as the FAA will always record a properly construed lien, or covenant. Which is nice, because the history is pretty much always there, and you can trace stuff. Where it gets tricky, is in cases where the asset(plane) has changed hands through estate of a deceased, or even worse, when a company/corp has gone out of business. It can still be done, but requires more legwork, that may be costly.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Wow, a lot of conspiracy theorists here.

Not really Doc, but we are VERY protective of Diana!! Just don't want her gettin in no trouble, yahear <g>

Affidavits are to prove past deeds such as this. Copies of 'xisting stuff is fine if you know to whom you are sending them and why. New Bills of Sale for a property not currently owned raise big red flags. The guy is either really dumb, or trying to use Diana and Tom to get around somethin.

Best,

Dave

 

[Diana]

Not really Doc, but we are VERY protective of Diana!! Just don't want her gettin in no trouble, yahear <g>

Dave, you're such a sweetheart. Thank you.

New Bills of Sale for a property not currently owned raise big red flags. The guy is either really dumb, or trying to use Diana and Tom to get around somethin.

We still can't figure out which it is either. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks again everyone.

 

[Diana]

An update. In the mail yesterday, I received a note from him saying that he still had the original bill of sale with only my signature and not Tom's. (Our copy has both our signatures, so I don't know where he came up with that.) But he didn't send that one. Instead he sent a new one filled out for us both to sign. And he included a self addressed, stamped envelope to send it back in. And he also included a $10 bill. Why would he include a $10 bill? We didn't ask him for money, and the envelope already had a stamp on it.

I'm going to call him today with a few questions. And we're not signing his new bill of sale.

It would be nice if my old airplane was flying again, and it's too bad that he's having problems with the registration on an airplane that he bought and hoped to fly, but I'm not going to get into a quagmire of problems in order to help him out.

 

[ScottM]

An update. In the mail yesterday, I received a note from him saying that he still had the original bill of sale with only my signature and not Tom's. (Our copy has both our signatures, so I don't know where he came up with that.) But he didn't send that one. Instead he sent a new one filled out for us both to sign. And he included a self addressed, stamped envelope to send it back in. And he also included a $10 bill. Why would he include a $10 bill? We didn't ask him for money, and the envelope already had a stamp on it.

I'm going to call him today with a few questions. And we're not signing his new bill of sale.

It would be nice if my old airplane was flying again, and it's too bad that he's having problems with the registration on an airplane that he bought and hoped to fly, but I'm not going to get into a quagmire of problems in order to help him out.

Conspiracy theorist or not something smell rotten there. Be careful!

 

[poadeleted20]

An update. In the mail yesterday, I received a note from him saying that he still had the original bill of sale with only my signature and not Tom's. (Our copy has both our signatures, so I don't know where he came up with that.) But he didn't send that one. Instead he sent a new one filled out for us both to sign. And he included a self addressed, stamped envelope to send it back in. And he also included a $10 bill. Why would he include a $10 bill? We didn't ask him for money, and the envelope already had a stamp on it.

Since your original bill of sale transferred ownership to the insurance company, you cannot sign another bill of sale to this individual since you no longer own the plane; only the insurance company (or any party to whom they sold the plane) can sell it. Signing another bill of sale to another party seems to me to amount to criminal fraud (you can check that with a lawyer to be sure).

BTW (and you may have mentioned this above), who is currently listed as the owner on the FAA Aircraft Registry? Is it still you and Tom? The insurance company? Something else?

I'm going to call him today with a few questions.

If I were you, I'd call him collect (unless you consider the $10 as paying for the call).

And we're not signing his new bill of sale.

Good!

It would be nice if my old airplane was flying again, and it's too bad that he's having problems with the registration on an airplane that he bought and hoped to fly, but I'm not going to get into a quagmire of problems in order to help him out.

Amen, sister.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Diana:

For a contract to be legally binding, there has to be something call consideration. He may have other motives, but many contracts state something like for $10 and other consideration..... This may be a clear way for him to establish that; although, a canceled check would be better. Don't know the state law where he is.

This just isn't worth you fooling with. Let him work things out without you getting involved. If you chat with him, tell him you conveyed the plane to the insurance company; you can't do anything else, and you consider the matter settled. Sounds like he's trying to get around things, but he could pull you into a bad situation. Just say NO. Much as you may want to help, this isn't the manner in which it should be done.

Best,

Dave

 

[docmirror]

Curiouser, and curiouser. To quote Carrol. this does sound pretty fishy. He's trying to do an end run around the owners between you and him. There are likely several owners that he doesn't want to trace paperwork with.

Sadly, he has a plane that can't be registered, or will have 'in question' registration. Hard to transfer ownership on that basis. Send back his $10, form, letter and a note that you need to see the one you signed before, as requested. Like Ron says, you can't sign selling something you don't now own, even for $10......

 

[wsuffa]

Sounds like he's trying to get around some kind of restriction on registering a destroyed aircraft.

Smells like possible fraud to me - I'd tread very, very carefully. I certainly wouldn't sign the document absent advice from an attorney that I paid for personally.

 

[Ken Ibold]

An update. In the mail yesterday, I received a note from him saying that he still had the original bill of sale with only my signature and not Tom's. (Our copy has both our signatures, so I don't know where he came up with that.) But he didn't send that one. Instead he sent a new one filled out for us both to sign.

Have you seen a copy of the single signature BOS? If so, is it in fact your signature? Can you add forgery to the list of suspicious factors?

 

[SCCutler]

Diana: You did not say whether the new Bill of Sale which this guy has sent along lists the insurance carrier, or this fellow, as the transferee; which is it?

In any event, you cannot issue a new Bill of Sale, conveying that which you no longer own.

If his goal is to have confirmation that you and Tom no longer claim any ownership interest in the plane, that can be accomplished- without any questionable consequences for you two- by issuance and execution of a "Quitclaim Deed." This is, at the most, all I would allow you as my client to do, absent a compelling showing of proporiety.

 

[Diana]

Have you seen a copy of the single signature BOS? If so, is it in fact your signature? Can you add forgery to the list of suspicious factors?

Just had an interesting phone conversation with the gentleman. I mentioned that I had a copy of the BOS that we gave to the insurance company and that it had both our signatures. I asked him to send me a copy of the one he had with just my signature and he said he already sent it in to the FAA, and he didn’t make a copy of it before sending. I asked him how it got my signature on it and he indicated that someone else probably signed my name 'for me' on the BOS…he wondered if it was perhaps the guy he bought it from.

I checked today and the N number is now being used on a Cessna Caravan. I mentioned that to him and he said the FAA told him that a new N number was available for him after he got the BOS from me. He said he got a letter from the FAA telling him to get the BOS from us, so I asked him to mail me a copy of that FAA letter to me. At least I will have a name of someone to talk to in OK City about this. He only gave me information after I kept pressing him about it.

I asked him about the $10 bill and he said it was for the OVC (don't know what that means). Sure enough, he had listed the $10 on the BOS.