Should Actual IMC be a requirement? (II)
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denverpilot
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Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
That is insane.
It's really not. Have you ever flown a true level D simulator?
denverpilot
Tied Down
I have, but only for "fun", but we had this as a question I posed recently to the pros here. None had ever felt fear inside "the box".
You can't pucker someone's butt enough that they'll remember it in one, and many folks do get a bit puckered when they encounter their first weather changes "far from home" and have to truly divert.
This is one area where none of my three main CFIs in my logbook were shy. They'd let me make a go/no-go and maybe let me hang myself a bit after they'd made their own silently. "Okay, might work. Let's go see."
With those under my belt, I then had a few real diversions "on my own" over many years as a VFR only pilot, and those were also quite memorable.
I love weather. I'd study weather even if I weren't a pilot. I also wouldn't give up all that time bombing around XC keeping a watchful eye out for stuff changing in an unforecast way. And it does that often enough, I think real XC time is one of the only ways to really get it.
About the only way to be even mildly scared in a box, is if the hydraulics on one of the damn legs breaks and you're worried you will bust a knob off the multimillion dollar toy because you or your stuff wasn't secured properly.
A good instructor can keep you busy "fighting for your life" in a box, in ways you can't simulate in a real aircraft, but somewhere in the back of your head you know you're just sitting in a box on the ground. You can use the time wisely to get flows and muscle memory down pat, but you won't ever get the shot of adrenaline you'll get the day it happens aloft. You'll just know you can probably get through it.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's unfortunate.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
Both polls would need to be public to come to any factual conclusion about that.
Kritchlow
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Yeah, it is tough to get scared knowing in the back of your mind that you're in the box, but... During REAL training you get so involved you forget you're actually in the box. Being "scared" may be an initial IFR thing, but not so much an ATP / type rating thing.
And remember, you can simulate ANYTHING in a level D sim. Snow, slippery runway with crosswind, and RVR you choose, and so forth.
midlifeflyer
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I'm not sure which concerns me more. Avoiding actual or the fact that you had 10 CFIs during your instrument training.
How did you pick so poorly 10 times in a row?
Yes, it does sound suspect. I did training for my instrument rating during a year that I was working weeks of 7 x 12 hour shifts at home followed by a week out of state (working 40-50 hour weeks). The only time I had available to train was during the out of state weeks. Further, I typically was only at the same location out of state for 2 or 3 weeks. Thus, the work schedule dictated multiple CFII's.
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OkieAviator
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What problem would be solved by mandating actual IMC during training? Has there been issues with instrument rated pilots going down due to not being able to handle the planes in actual?
midlifeflyer
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Wow! That must have been quite the ordeal!
In that situation I can almost understand the avoidance of flight in actual. For example, each CFII might reasonably want to see you in action under the hood before venturing into the clouds. CFIIs switching around often combined with location changes, and weather conditions not being on the same schedule could easily lead to an absence of cloud time.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
That's the thing, it doesn't seem to be a major issue. IFR pilots have gone down due to suspected spatial disorientation but not enough to say "reg change time".
There were some good points brought up in the other thread and I think the best conclusion is that we don't need another reg, but the CFI should try hard to get his/her student up in some actual if the opportunity is there.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
POA polls don't claim to use proper polling methodology, but there was a definite reversal. And members are blocked from voting twice under the same user name so I doubt if anyone pumped up the numbers on one side. Take it for what it is.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don't know about Part 91 flying, but under Part 121 (airlines) you train in the sim but then you're required to do IOE (initial operating experience) under supervision of a Instructor Pilot. Once that's completed THEN you can act as PIC and carry victims, I mean passengers.
Captain
Final Approach
I don't know about Part 91 flying, but under Part 121 (airlines) you train in the sim but then you're required to do IOE (initial operating experience) under supervision of a Instructor Pilot. Once that's completed THEN you can act as PIC and carry victims, I mean passengers.
That and a Line Check with the FAA watching. Small point.
Everskyward
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Part 91 you're good to go as long as your insurance agrees or you go uncovered.I don't know about Part 91 flying, but under Part 121 (airlines) you train in the sim but then you're required to do IOE (initial operating experience) under supervision of a Instructor Pilot. Once that's completed THEN you can act as PIC and carry victims, I mean passengers.
Part 135 you're good as long as you have a line check in another airplane.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
The simulator provides a different kind of fear. Yes, while flying it you will never experience the kind of fear that you might in a real airplane, but you can experience scenarios where you realize at the end, that you did what you just did in the real airplane, you would have died. That is a feeling that sticks with you.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Never had the Fed watch when I did my types, just Co IPs (designated by our local FAA inspector) . Everytime.
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denverpilot
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All correct. But in context, it's doubtful anyone asking how to log more XC time is an ATP already. What they likely need is... real XC time. Amazingly enough... they make airplanes just for that.
rocketflyer84
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Under the hood all I could really see was the instruments so it was a lot easier. First time I was in actual during my training it was really disorienting, I think because even if you still focus on the instruments your eyes are still getting lots of inputs they weren't getting before. At night this was even more so between the strobes and whips of clouds flashing by the window being illuminated by the landing lights. Eventually I was able to block that all out, but the first few times yeah it was totally different.
Very glad I was able get some experience with that during training with an instructor by my side. Honestly it amazes me that one can get the rating without any actual, although I do understand the practical implications.
Very glad I was able get some experience with that during training with an instructor by my side. Honestly it amazes me that one can get the rating without any actual, although I do understand the practical implications.
FlySince9
En-Route
Changed my vote to no based on the difficulty at some locations in the country but still feel I would want to get as much as possible during IR training
When I was doing my Instrument training I had two instructors. Brad an experienced pilot in his early thirties who owned his own C-310 and was also an A&P. The other was Bob, a sharp 19 year old who had finished training a few months earlier and was now working his first instructing job.
Most of the basic instrument training had been done in VMC or in a Frasca simulator without visuals. One day an IFR cross-country was scheduled with Brad. I show up that morning and it's 1/2-200 pretty much 200nm around us. Great, I thought, we're going to get some IMC time in! Brad cancelled the flight for that day and I was puzzled. Brad told me he was not comfortable taking a single engine piston aircraft up on a day like that.
Few days later, I was scheduled with Bob and pretty much the same weather. We did that flight in IMC. I shot four approaches that day. Being in IMC was a much different sensory experience than under foggles. Very distracting with the different light coming into the cockpit as we flew thru different thickness of clouds and turbulence. Great experience to really be in the system and learned a lot that day.
After I told Brad about my flight with Bob he said, good for you. Then explained me about his personal minimums. Contrary to Bob, who had none, Brad had personal minimums to go fly hard IFR with a student in a single engine piston. He told me his experience as an A&P and having seen his share of engine faillures made him very aware of the possibility of an engine failure. Brad told me that trying to land off-airport in 1/2-200 after an engine failure would most likely be our last ever and he was not going to expose us to that risk. He wanted options at all times so no actual IFR unless the weather was above 3-2000. That way you'd have a chance to make an emergency landing somewhere other than an airport. I took it as good advice.
Bob tought me how to fly in the actual system and be prepared for the different sensory sensations. Brad told me to use sound judgement that has served me well over the last 25 years. Two good lessons from two different teachers.
Flight in IMC should be tought for a few hours and always did with my students. Even if we had to go look for it. Preferably in weather that puts you in IMC but high enough to safely make an off-airport landing if the need arises. If not possible, a flight with a II should be done in IMC after getting the rating before being allowed to fly in IMC.
A few years ago I built an AATD at home with 180 degree visuals and have introduced some friends with fresh instrument ratings to the joys of "actual" IMC flying. X-Plane 9 simulates low IFR weather pretty realistically. Every one does realy well on an ILS to low mins. Make it a non-precision approach to an MDA with a circle, right at the mins for that approach, throw in a distraction and the wheels come of the wagon. When you lose sight of the runway you're supposed to go missed. Most try to save it by descending again or use the GPS to regain situational awareness and land.
Looking at the vertical and lateral graphs it's evident that as long as we're on the gauges, all is well. The moment we look outside the flying becomes shaky. Better to recognise these tendencies in a sim or with an instructor than on your first IMC flight with friends or family. You simply can not simulate this by taking the foggles off at the DH or MDA on a perfect VFR day. It's the transition from IMC to VMC that gets pilots in trouble.
Most of the basic instrument training had been done in VMC or in a Frasca simulator without visuals. One day an IFR cross-country was scheduled with Brad. I show up that morning and it's 1/2-200 pretty much 200nm around us. Great, I thought, we're going to get some IMC time in! Brad cancelled the flight for that day and I was puzzled. Brad told me he was not comfortable taking a single engine piston aircraft up on a day like that.
Few days later, I was scheduled with Bob and pretty much the same weather. We did that flight in IMC. I shot four approaches that day. Being in IMC was a much different sensory experience than under foggles. Very distracting with the different light coming into the cockpit as we flew thru different thickness of clouds and turbulence. Great experience to really be in the system and learned a lot that day.
After I told Brad about my flight with Bob he said, good for you. Then explained me about his personal minimums. Contrary to Bob, who had none, Brad had personal minimums to go fly hard IFR with a student in a single engine piston. He told me his experience as an A&P and having seen his share of engine faillures made him very aware of the possibility of an engine failure. Brad told me that trying to land off-airport in 1/2-200 after an engine failure would most likely be our last ever and he was not going to expose us to that risk. He wanted options at all times so no actual IFR unless the weather was above 3-2000. That way you'd have a chance to make an emergency landing somewhere other than an airport. I took it as good advice.
Bob tought me how to fly in the actual system and be prepared for the different sensory sensations. Brad told me to use sound judgement that has served me well over the last 25 years. Two good lessons from two different teachers.
Flight in IMC should be tought for a few hours and always did with my students. Even if we had to go look for it. Preferably in weather that puts you in IMC but high enough to safely make an off-airport landing if the need arises. If not possible, a flight with a II should be done in IMC after getting the rating before being allowed to fly in IMC.
A few years ago I built an AATD at home with 180 degree visuals and have introduced some friends with fresh instrument ratings to the joys of "actual" IMC flying. X-Plane 9 simulates low IFR weather pretty realistically. Every one does realy well on an ILS to low mins. Make it a non-precision approach to an MDA with a circle, right at the mins for that approach, throw in a distraction and the wheels come of the wagon. When you lose sight of the runway you're supposed to go missed. Most try to save it by descending again or use the GPS to regain situational awareness and land.
Looking at the vertical and lateral graphs it's evident that as long as we're on the gauges, all is well. The moment we look outside the flying becomes shaky. Better to recognise these tendencies in a sim or with an instructor than on your first IMC flight with friends or family. You simply can not simulate this by taking the foggles off at the DH or MDA on a perfect VFR day. It's the transition from IMC to VMC that gets pilots in trouble.
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