Short field landing help

[NJP_MAN]

Actually, the CP PTS says:

That means 199 feet long of the examiner-specified point is a "pass," but 1 foot short of it is a bust. Personally, I teach people to aim for the middle of that 200-foot "green" zone so they have 100 feet either way to play with (Ref: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid regarding shooting someone -- "That way, if you miss, you'll still hit something"). Whether you call that within 100 feet of the wise pilot's chosen aim point or a 200 foot margin beyond the examiner's point is a matter of semantics. Just make sure you understand the space you have to play with and land inside it -- and keeping your speed from going fast is critical to accomplishing that every time you try.

I must have a outdated PtS.

AOA IV. Task F. Objective 9.


Clearly says at or within 100' beyond a specified point.


Edit:I need to get the updated version. If you have a newer version can you direct me to it. I don't want to be teaching the wrong numbers.

 

[Blackhawk]

BTW, a good way of practicing this at first is to try to touch down on the 1000' markers which are normally 150' long.

 

[lr60plt]

Use more power to go slower.

No that is not a typo...

 

[alfadog]

I fly an Arrow II and approach at 80 mph with full flaps and some power. Knock 5 mph off that and chop the power as soon that mains touch and you should have all the short field landing you need.

 

[bobmrg]

I must have a outdated PtS.

AOA IV. Task F. Objective 9.


Clearly says at or within 100' beyond a specified point.


Edit:I need to get the updated version. If you have a newer version can you direct me to it. I don't want to be teaching the wrong numbers.

www.faa.gov.

Bob Gardner

 

[mtuomi]

Not using full flaps on a short field landing sounds like a weird way to land it, especially on a Piper where the last notch is for drag, not really for lift.

I always use full flaps, we often have 20+kts at KFRG. I've done 21G27 on a Warrior with full flaps, no problems at all.

 

[bobmrg]

Bob, the prop is already at fine pitch in the pattern.

Anytime a CS prop RPM drops below settings, the prop is maxed out fine.

BUT, chopping the throttle right over the numbers isn't a "stabilized approach." Even in fixed pitch, I've found I can make much better -- and shorter -- landings if I aim high compared to any PAPI (all white) and at idle or near idle power at least 200 feet up, more if the PAPI is 1000 feet past the threshold. 200 feet up may be over the fence if the airport has a significant displaced threshold. That is, ignore the PAPI unless it's all red, and use the aim point method with low power.

You can aim short, but obstacles on a "real" short field may not allow that. MUCH better is to approach near idle, steeper than the usual 4 deg. With a CS prop, it can be a lot steeper. From my experience, passengers really prefer a steeper approach over the trees, even if there is a lot of clearance, and even if the approach is really steep. They don't like slips much, though, so don't overdo it.

When you pull the power, the phugoid mode is going to try to speed you up initially, and you get to counter that with backpressure. You have to allow yourself enough time to kill the transient, or you'll still be fighting that when you touch down. Killing the power 20 feet up isn't going to do that.

I hesitate to question you, because you are far smarter than I am in technical matters. What does "below settings" mean? A lot depends on the power setting "in the pattern." I'm pretty sure that most folks are operating in the governing range until beginning their descent to landing; in my experience, it takes a reduction to less than 12" or so MAP to get to the low-pitch stop...11" or less for sure. Figure 12-3 in the Airplane Flying Handbook is instructive when comparing blade pitch to drag.

Maybe I have a sensitive rear end, but I can tell when the prop is pulling the airplane and when the airplane is pushing the prop, and of course that means that I can tell when the prop is "idling"...neither pushing nor pulling. When the airplane is pushing the prop, the increased drag is immediately apparent, so the question is where is the best place to have that happen.

Bob

 

[bobmrg]

I must have a outdated PtS.

AOA IV. Task F. Objective 9.


Clearly says at or within 100' beyond a specified point.


Edit:I need to get the updated version. If you have a newer version can you direct me to it. I don't want to be teaching the wrong numbers.

www.faa.gov.

Bob Gardner

 

[NJP_MAN]

www.faa.gov.

Bob Gardner

That's where I got my information.

 

[alfadog]

First, you are too fast (is there an echo in here?). Second, pulling the throttle back to idle over the threshold is way too late. Are you familiar with flat-plate drag? When you kill the throttle with a c/s prop, it goes to fine pitch (flat), which is the equivalent of an 84" flat plate bolted to the front of the crankshaft; lots of drag, but that drag is more useful on short final than when over the threshold. Give the governor some time to flatten the pitch and you will find that slowing down is much easier.

I am 100% in agreement with aiming short of the threshold and floating onto the runway if wind conditions permit. You are an energy manager; try to have as little energy as possible to dissipate after touchdown.

Bob Gardner

You don't want to be slow and low power in the Arrow II or you will not have enough elevator authority to break the descent rate and will land hard. I carry power all the way down and get all the sink rate I need just from the fact that the Arrow II is a pig. Lovable pig, but a pig. In my "Impossible turn" video, I leave an extra 10 mph in (90 mph) to be able to make a decent flare at idle.

 

[MAKG1]

I hesitate to question you, because you are far smarter than I am in technical matters. What does "below settings" mean? A lot depends on the power setting "in the pattern." I'm pretty sure that most folks are operating in the governing range until beginning their descent to landing; in my experience, it takes a reduction to less than 12" or so MAP to get to the low-pitch stop...11" or less for sure. Figure 12-3 in the Airplane Flying Handbook is instructive when comparing blade pitch to drag.

Maybe I have a sensitive rear end, but I can tell when the prop is pulling the airplane and when the airplane is pushing the prop, and of course that means that I can tell when the prop is "idling"...neither pushing nor pulling. When the airplane is pushing the prop, the increased drag is immediately apparent, so the question is where is the best place to have that happen.

Bob

Sorry, I'm not being clear.

If you set the prop for 2500 (for the sake of argument), and pull the throttle and slow down, if the tach reads 2450, you're not in governing range anymore.

Now, I may fly my patterns slower than you -- I like 80 KIAS on downwind in the (very) light Cessnas I'm qualified on (172RG, 177RG, 182 are the ones with CS props) -- but I'm not at cruise RPM anymore when I'm on downwind, without adjusting the blue knob. I'm sure that will change to 90 when I get instrument rated, and maybe the answer is different.

And I'm sure your butt is more sensitive than mine. I've been having issues with that (working on it).

You can definitely feel the difference if you pull the prop during an engine out. It's not even slightly subtle. But that may not be a good idea for a short field landing during a check ride, if it is inconsistent with the landing checklist (I don't know if it is on an Arrow, but the Cessnas say prop to high RPM).

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm a noob so take all this with a grain of salt......

I was also taught that I needed to land in a 200 foot zone and that 1 foot shy of the start of the zone would be a fail. However, I did not adjust my intended touchdown point to the center of the 200 foot target. I aimed to touchdown at the close end of the 200'. As others have said, adjust your visual aiming point so that your touchdown point will be where you want it. My logic on aiming towards the short side is that you can always add a touch of power if you're coming up short. If you misjudge your speed, wind changes or ????, and float too far, you're hosed.

That works if you have power available, but not on the 180 power-off approach for CP and CFI, which is the toughest of the landing tasks. But even on the short-field approach, I'll stick with my advice lest one hiccup of the engine upon power application result in busting the ride.

 

[poadeleted20]

I must have a outdated PtS.

AOA IV. Task F. Objective 9.


Clearly says at or within 100' beyond a specified point.


Edit:I need to get the updated version. If you have a newer version can you direct me to it. I don't want to be teaching the wrong numbers.

Sorry -- I snagged the Normal/Crosswind number rather than the Short-Field number. You are correct for the Short-Field Task -- although I'd still aim for the middle of that 100-foot space (i.e., 50 feet long of the "designated point").

 

[bobmrg]

Sorry, I'm not being clear.

If you set the prop for 2500 (for the sake of argument), and pull the throttle and slow down, if the tach reads 2450, you're not in governing range anymore.

Now, I may fly my patterns slower than you -- I like 80 KIAS on downwind in the (very) light Cessnas I'm qualified on (172RG, 177RG, 182 are the ones with CS props) -- but I'm not at cruise RPM anymore when I'm on downwind, without adjusting the blue knob. I'm sure that will change to 90 when I get instrument rated, and maybe the answer is different.

And I'm sure your butt is more sensitive than mine. I've been having issues with that (working on it).

You can definitely feel the difference if you pull the prop during an engine out. It's not even slightly subtle. But that may not be a good idea for a short field landing during a check ride, if it is inconsistent with the landing checklist (I don't know if it is on an Arrow, but the Cessnas say prop to high RPM).

"Engine out" is out of context. With regard to going to high RPM, I believe that the conventional wisdom is "In case of a possible go-around the prop is already full forward." I'm a contrarian on that...if the runway is clear and there is no one in position to taxi onto it, I leave the blue knob alone until I am on the runway surface.

I got my education about this subject when flying 421's, which have geared engines. The chief pilot (ex-USAF fighter pilot) was adamant about keeping a load on the props all the way down and would go ballistic if I pulled the power below 12".

Bob

 

[kgruber]

You should re evaluate your mission, and remember when to say NO!

If there is so much gusting crosswind at your intended short destination, it is time to go to your alternate. Get-there-ites is a big killer.

 

[alfadog]

You should re evaluate your mission, and remember when to say NO!

If there is so much gusting crosswind at your intended short destination, it is time to go to your alternate. Get-there-ites is a big killer.

This is a fellow working on a CFI ticket. I hope that he is not afraid of a wind gusting to 16, even if it were a direct crosswind, which he does not specify.

 

[iRyan]

Afraid, no but it does make me a bit nervous. I dont fly all that much and I know I will have to get used to it. My regular landings with gusts to 16 are fine. I just have to get more comfortable in windy conditions.

I will be sure to use full flaps...it makes sense with the added drag.

Thanks for the help everyone.

This is a fellow working on a CFI ticket. I hope that he is not afraid of a wind gusting to 16, even if it were a direct crosswind, which he does not specify.

 

[alfadog]

Afraid, no but it does make me a bit nervous. I dont fly all that much and I know I will have to get used to it. My regular landings with gusts to 16 are fine. I just have to get more comfortable in windy conditions.

I will be sure to use full flaps...it makes sense with the added drag.

Thanks for the help everyone.

That was not directed to you so much as the post suggesting that you should consider going somewhere else to land. Though obviously, I would like a higher degree of competence and confidence in a CFI candidate. I think that should have been sorted out well before getting a CPL.

ps. one of my earliest errors in PPL training was practicing short landings with full flaps in a strong xwind. It is very exciting when you bounce. LOL. But I was just post-solo.

 

[iRyan]

I agree that i need more exposure to strong winds. I am going to finish up my cfi in KC with a great cfi, but I am just trying to stay current here. In KC, I was flying in winds gusting to 25 and 30. I did fine. I just need more confidence and practice. I will be fine with practice and I just have to listen to the help given here. It is just frustrating and I want to be the best cfi that I can be.


[QUOTE=alfadog;1383800]That was not directed to you so much as the post suggesting that you should consider going somewhere else to land. Though obviously, I would like a higher degree of competence and confidence in a CFI candidate. I think that should have been sorted out well before getting a CPL.

ps. one of my earliest errors in PPL training was practicing short landings with full flaps in a strong xwind. It is very exciting when you bounce. LOL. But I was just post-solo.[/QUOTE]

 

[alfadog]

Well, best of luck to you!

 

[MAKG1]

… and would go ballistic if I pulled the power below 12".

He would jump out of the airplane?

Ballistic = gravity + air resistance only.

 

[zaitcev]

I found short field in Arrow II challenging. The only good way to make it consistent is to slow it down uncomfortably well on the back side of the power curve and let it sink all the way to touchdown, then flare it so it stalls just when it slams the runway. The contact is not gentle at all, but if you keep the speed just right, you have just the right authority to prevent it from landing on the nose wheel. If you touch mains first, there will be no prop strike (the Arrow I flew, N32492, had scimitar prop). BTW, it's just like Mooney: make sure you slow down before pulling power for descent. As soon as you hit the glide, even full flaps won't slow it as necessary to hit book numbers. I ended flying that Arrow on all XCs and paying through my nose, while practicing landings at every fuel stop. Took me maybe 30 landings to get more or less comfortable.

 

[ChrisK]

He would jump out of the airplane?

Ballistic = gravity + air resistance only.

Technically if the power were pulled far enough one could argue....

 

[kgruber]

This is a fellow working on a CFI ticket. I hope that he is not afraid of a wind gusting to 16, even if it were a direct crosswind, which he does not specify.

There are many "short" fields where gust to 16 preclude landing.

 

[Blackhawk]

I really wish pilots would stop shoving the prop forward until power has been reduced. I use to live under the FAF for one of the ILSs at KROC and every night some #%^*ing 135 pilot would shove his props forward giving us a nice WOW, WOW ,WOW" sound. There is no need for it.

 

[poadeleted20]

There are many "short" fields where gust to 16 preclude landing.

I cannot imagine the sort of field where wind gusting to 16 would precluded landing an Archer but a lower steady state wind would not. We'd be talking a very, very narrow band of runway environs for the difference between, say, steady 10 and 10G16 would make the difference, especially in the hands of someone skilled enough to hold a CFI ticket.

 

[dell30rb]

I cannot imagine the sort of field where wind gusting to 16 would precluded landing an Archer but a lower steady state wind would not. We'd be talking a very, very narrow band of runway environs for the difference between, say, steady 10 and 10G16 would make the difference, especially in the hands of someone skilled enough to hold a CFI ticket.

I can... If I have a 10G16 crosswind at my home base (air park) NC81 I'll think twice about flying.

The wind is not a problem in ground effect, but coming down final with 80 foot pines right next to the runway a wind like that can result in some really uncomfortable stuff going on during an approach at short field speeds.

I agree with you for most airports, but I think kgruber was referring to some of the more interesting ones. Around here there are a bunch of 2000-2500 ft private airports that are seemingly cut into tall, thick Carolina pines. A metar at a nearby airport of 10 kts I wouldn't worry about, but 10g16 I would start thinking about a plan B if I needed it

 

[poadeleted20]

I can... If I have a 10G16 crosswind at my home base (air park) NC81 I'll think twice about flying.

But you'd fly with a steady 10 crosswind without thinking twice? In any event, the OP didn't say it was a G16 crosswind component, just a wind gusting to 16.

I agree with you for most airports, but I think kgruber was referring to some of the more interesting ones. Around here there are a bunch of 2000-2500 ft private airports that are seemingly cut into tall, thick Carolina pines. A metar at a nearby airport of 10 kts I wouldn't worry about, but 10g16 I would start thinking about a plan B if I needed it

I think that's fine for you, but a CFI should be able to handle it in an Archer on a 2500x75 runway like yours.

 

[dell30rb]

But you'd fly with a steady 10 crosswind without thinking twice? In any event, the OP didn't say it was a G16 crosswind component, just a wind gusting to 16.

The strength of the wind on our aircraft is essentially the square of the velocity. 16 v 10 is a big difference.

 

[dell30rb]

But you'd fly with a steady 10 crosswind without thinking twice? In any event, the OP didn't say it was a G16 crosswind component, just a wind gusting to 16.

I think that's fine for you, but a CFI should be able to handle it in an Archer on a 2500x75 runway like yours.

Ah, I thought we were talking about a crosswind. Yes, if it's blowing right down the field a 10g16 wind should not bother anyone in an archer at a 2500x75 field.

However a 16 knot Xwind gust wouldn't be much fun here.. Landing starts at 2:30

 

[N801BH]

Ah, I thought we were talking about a crosswind. Yes, if it's blowing right down the field a 10g16 wind should not bother anyone in an archer at a 2500x75 field.

However a 16 knot Xwind gust wouldn't be much fun here.. Landing starts at 2:30

And the problem was ??...............................

 

[dell30rb]

And the problem was ??...............................

It gets tricky w the winds rolling off the tops of those trees. I can be indicating 50mph and next second it's 35 mph and it's elevator going down. I've landed there many times in those conditions but it's not fun.

The airport obviously does not have an AWOS but if the wind is up over what I would guess to be 18-20 knots crosswind I prefer not to fly there.

 

[bluefalcon94]

Hey POA members,

Still working in my cfi and having an issue with short field landings. Im flying an Arrow II and normal approach speed is 75 mph over the numbers. I pick my spot and float past it, well past the 100'. I was focusing on my speed to be sure I was not too fast in final. I was pretty close to 75 (added 8 mph for wind). I didnt use full flaps b/c of the winds were gusting to 16. I know I cant teach it unless I perfect the landing and Im pretty frustrated. Since it is just my cfi and myself, should I reduce speed a bit more? I calculated the stall speed using the lift formula an it reduced it by about 5 mph. This cert. feels so out if reach.

OHHH Brother...below is part of my first post from a few days ago...

"The second time I busted.....was down to my shortfield landing when in the flare the DPE took control and landed. Well I felt the plane settling the last few feet and as I've always done in that situation I added power to control the touchdown and that's when the DPE said I've got it and put it down the last 5 feet or so. According to the DPE I was going to land hard and possibly side load the gear. Obviously the REF called me for a penalty and in that case the decision is final........backing up a little... one thing that I think makes the shortfield a crapshoot is the 50 ft obstacle. That is subjective as its a notional obstacle at a random distance from the threshold. We have to simulate with an altimeter reading whereas a real obstacle is right out the window to fly over. Thing is I don't see the 50ft obstacle requirement in the PTS. On what basis is that enforced by the DPE on the landing?.......I know a lot to read before the actual question...lol"

had a front stalled on top of us that day with variable winds forecast.....winds were 200@ about 10kt when I dialed up AWOS about 5 min before landing on runway 21..should've been no big deal right?...on final I notice the crab angle was indicating a right to left X-wind....ok winds were obviously not what I would expect with what the AWOS had reported. And I was REALLY trying hard to not float past the numbers......One thing I have learned is how important ANY headwind component can be on a shortfield landing.......I was mad enough to chew the wing of that Arrow off......(I was using full flaps on the Hershey Bar wing) Thanks for the story.....

 

[Scud_072]

Been a while since I've flown an Archer, but some general observations.
1. You don't add airspeed for winds. Gust yes, winds no. Usually 1/2 the gust spread so in order to add 8 MPH you would need a 16 knot/MPH gust spread.
2. The approach speed you are using is most likely based upon maximum gross weight of 2600 lbs (or whatever the max gross weight of the model you are flying). As your weight decreases so does your stalls speed. Since approach speed is based upon 1.3xVso your approach speed should also decrease with your weight, though most older airplane POHs don't tell you this.
The formula for getting this new number is:
square root of OW/GW*book CAS. So, for example if you are operating at 2300 lbs and say the book speed is 70 MPH (I think most speeds in the older Arrow POHs are CAS), you new approach speed would be 2300/2600= .88. Square root .88= .94. .94x70=66. Then use the IAS/CAS conversion table in the POH to convert this to your desired IAS in MPH.

IMPRESSIVE!

That is some amazing knowlege / info right there....