Shaken, not stirred

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
February issue of AOPA flight training mag has an article about power on stalls. The author contends that on most training aircraft, the power on stall REQUIRES intentional input to become a spin.:confused::confused::confused:
He states that the yoke MUST be held aft, while FULL rudder is used and that simply performing the power on stall uncoordinated is not enough to induce the spin.

PoA, what say you?
 
Since you're the guy who looks for quantifiable proof, and who also owns such and airplane, I'd say you should go do some feet-on-the-floor power-on stalls and report your observations here. Then you'll know.
 
I'm not as such a qualified test pilot as you. Didn't think I'd make an enemy out of you either, by simply asking you to dress your chickens before sending them across the road.
 
I read that article but I don't have it here at work. Was he specifically describing 150/152/172s or did he generalize it to most training aircraft? From what i've read, some aircraft, like the piper tomahawk, were often used for training and not all that difficult to induce a spin in.
 
Compared to say a citabria, you really have to TRY to make a 172 spin...it did require practically full control input to do anything. In the citabria, a simple uncoordinated turn did the trick. :yikes:

Of course, accident database reports prove that anyone can make anything spin. But in general in my limited experience spinning them, I'd say the training fleet (150-172-cherokees-etc) you do have to TRY to spin them.

Might this be a point for me to say - go get spin training. One lesson is all that's needed. It's awesome, and was a huge confidence booster. I know it's not required for the PPL, but it should be in my opinion. You need to hear, see, feel what it looks like, not read text on what to do when it happens. Plus, they're a ton of fun!
 
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In a 152/172 if you don't continue to hold significant rudder and elevator in during a spin you'll find yourself in a spiral dive pretty quick.
 
If you just let go of everything as you enter the spin you'll spin maybe half a turn before the airplane recovers. Unfortunately that is plenty of time to get fubar'd if you're base-final. And most who die in those accidents probably worsen their situation by pulling back on the yoke
 
I never had to hold rudder in the 172 after the spin developed. It takes a while to fully develop unless you forced it to an over-the-top entry by using a slightly accelerated stall. Just held elevator after that. YMMV.
 
Spun my 172 a few times, and it tool a helluva lot of effort to get her there, and yes, if it was just a developing spin, letting go of everything and the plane made it's own way back out of the spin, however, we did it to have me actually learn to do the recovery inputs in real life, and as another poster said, not just by reading about them in a book.

Oh, and in case big brother is watching, the plane was configured properly and within W&B to do the spin work. It was kinda fun at 5K feet!
 
So the terminology is "just the facts, ma'am" when you use it and enmity when used by someone else?

Not your fault, but sad that we've watered down and wussified the PPL to the point that pilots are so deathly afraid of stalls. And more reason to expect more pilots will see a wing disappear over or under for the first time when no recovery is possible from a cross-control stall.

If you're ever in Dallas I'll show you what happens and you can decide whether it's just another ho-hum maneuver except that the airplane is banked more than ususal or whether it's something that only Yeager and Hoover should attempt.



I'm not as such a qualified test pilot as you. Didn't think I'd make an enemy out of you either, by simply asking you to dress your chickens before sending them across the road.
 
I don't think I know of any airplane which could be described as a popular light training aircraft which will spin without intentional inputs, power-on or power-off. I don't think even full nose-up trim will accomplish that.

That said, if you are uncoordinated at the time of the stall break in a power-on "takeoff/departure" stall, you are going to be in for an exciting few seconds thereafter -- but not a spin unless you hold the inputs.
 
Not your fault, but sad that we've watered down and wussified the PPL to the point that pilots are so deathly afraid of stalls. And more reason to expect more pilots will see a wing disappear over or under for the first time when no recovery is possible from a cross-control stall.

If you're ever in Dallas I'll show you what happens and you can decide whether it's just another ho-hum maneuver except that the airplane is banked more than ususal or whether it's something that only Yeager and Hoover should attempt.
The CFI that signed me off for my checkride did not allow me to practice power-on stalls solo. Since I'd never done a spin in a C-1 anything I assumed that it was the reason why. Even when I flew the Citabria and INTENTIONALLY spun it, it still required some intentional effort to get her going. Shame we didn't do any power on stalls or accelerated stalls. I'll have to put that on my bucket list.

I'll take you up on your offer, though I think it will be quite a while before I'm in Dallas. But LMK if you're in the DC area, and I'll show you around, in the air or on the ground.


I don't think I know of any airplane which could be described as a popular light training aircraft which will spin without intentional inputs, power-on or power-off. I don't think even full nose-up trim will accomplish that.

That said, if you are uncoordinated at the time of the stall break in a power-on "takeoff/departure" stall, you are going to be in for an exciting few seconds thereafter -- but not a spin unless you hold the inputs.
What's the worse that could happen? assuming you're smart enough to NOT hold the inputs or kick in full rudder?
 
The CFI that signed me off for my checkride did not allow me to practice power-on stalls solo. Since I'd never done a spin in a C-1 anything I assumed that it was the reason why. Even when I flew the Citabria and INTENTIONALLY spun it, it still required some intentional effort to get her going. Shame we didn't do any power on stalls or accelerated stalls. I'll have to put that on my bucket list.
Did you do your private training in something spinable? If so, then I think it's unfortunate if your CFI didn't do spin training with you. And even if not, I think it's unfortunate that your CFI didn't want you doing power-on stalls solo. Mine kinda pushed me to do them, as I never cared for the feeling of being so nose-high.

Personally I think that any maneuver that you'll be required to demonstrate on the checkride, you should be allowed and encouraged to practice while solo. The only exceptions I can think of are emergency power-off procedures (unless it's in an area where you know exactly where all the obstacles are), and of course the under-the-hood stuff.
 
Private training was in a C-172P. I didn't fly the Citabria until after I had my ticket.
 
Ending up on your back nose down and rolling with the airspeed heading for the redline.

Since this is NOT a spin, as you stated above, what is it? And do you agree with the AOPA article or Wayne's statement?
 
...Shame we didn't do any power on stalls or accelerated stalls. I'll have to put that on my bucket list.

Isn't that taught any more? (or was it just not reviewed during the aircraft checkout? A little unclear there.) If I were you I'd head to the airport post haste and spend a couple of hours at the edge of the envelope with a competent instructor. That's pretty basic got-to-know stuff.

And you can't believe everything you find in the AOPA mag.
 
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Isn't that taught any more? (or was it just not reviewed during the aircraft checkout? A little unclear there.) If I were you I'd head to the airport post haste and spend a couple of hours at the edge of the envelope with a competent instructor. That's pretty basic got-to-know stuff.

And you can't believe everything you find in the AOPA mag.
1) Power-on stalls are definitely still included in checkrides, though accelerated stalls are not.
2) You can believe Greg Brown in that same issue when he dropped Leslie's name in his column on minority pilots! :yes:
 
From reading accident reports over the years my impression is that cross-control stalls are the primary killers, followed by glide-stretching when power is lost, usually from running out of gas. The most-frequent cause of X-control stalls appears to be the pilot's reluctance to execute a coordinated turn that might require a steeper angle of bank than he would normally use in the pattern, which in turn is often due to a tail-wind on base. So his worry about "don't make steep turns close to the ground or you might crash" is replaced by his seemingly (to him anyway) great idea to cheat the bank and increase turn rate with rudder. With partial power and a little back pressure when bottom rudder pulls the nose down, he has just learned more than he ever wanted to know about snap rolls and/or abrupt spin entry at pattern altitude. *Splat*

If you get an opportunity to practice, try some of these at altitude, with both excessive top rudder and bottom rudder. I think this drill will teach you everything you need to know about why you don't ever ever ever want to do them at pattern altitude. It did for me.

The CFI that signed me off for my checkride did not allow me to practice power-on stalls solo. Since I'd never done a spin in a C-1 anything I assumed that it was the reason why. Even when I flew the Citabria and INTENTIONALLY spun it, it still required some intentional effort to get her going. Shame we didn't do any power on stalls or accelerated stalls. I'll have to put that on my bucket list.

I'll take you up on your offer, though I think it will be quite a while before I'm in Dallas. But LMK if you're in the DC area, and I'll show you around, in the air or on the ground.



What's the worse that could happen? assuming you're smart enough to NOT hold the inputs or kick in full rudder?
 
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If you get an opportunity to practice, try some of these at altitude, with both excessive top rudder and bottom rudder. I think this drill will teach you everything you need to know about why you don't ever ever ever want to do them at pattern altitude. It did for me.

When I was a pre-solo private, I tried the extra rudder to cheat the turn. The instructor said "Don't do that, ever. That kills people." I believed him and never did again.

I later did the exercise Wayne suggests here, which did, indeed, teach me why I never wanted to do that.
 
For those suffering from insomnia, the following sermon should help solve that problem.
__________________


Kim's posts about her experiences, mental lapses, mistakes and misadventures with the radio and ATC are illustrative of (some of) the problems faced by new PPL's, as well the non-element of our current system that creates the opportunities for these problems to occur and the odds that they probably will. In spite of the screw-ups in some areas, she seems to be doing reasonably well in others based on her dad's critical assessment of her performance. Maybe she will continue to improve, and based on her willingness to openly admit her problems and seek advice, I think that will be the case. For many other young pilots who assume they have it all figured out and are suddenly experts based on their new wallet-load of FAA plastic, the story will be different.

Kim’s problem pattern isn't unique, and it's not her fault that she's stumbling with some of the things that in theory (at least based on the FAA's licensing process) shouldn't be happening to a well-trained private pilot. So why are these things happening to her? Is she the only one that is struggling with some of these things, or just the only one who is willing to admit them and ask for advice in order to improve? Why are Doc and other new pilots hesitant to fly into Class anything airspace? Why can’t another pilot compose and transmit a non-garble to Unicom? Why won't licensed pilots ever practice stalls or any maneuvers that require more than 20 degrees of bank once they have completed the check ride? Why are low-level cross-control stall-spins such a prominent factor in fatal accidents? Where's the disconnect?

Gruber’s post touched directly on an important aspect of the problem and indirectly referenced another. The first is that instructors don’t have sufficient time to create a perfect (or even polished) pilot, even if they knew how to do so (which could the subject of another long thread) or to correct/refine all of the areas where improvement would be beneficial to the student. As a result, it’s a given that the newly-minted PPL’s will have some rough edges that will hopefully be smoothed up by experience and exposure, because our system does not provide for any further training that could be valuable and/or meaningful during the transition from “a student pilot who just passed the check ride that entitles him/her to fly without supervision while carrying passengers” to a pilot who is actually trying to fly an airplane on their own and without the mother-hen attention and micro-management of a CYA-motivated CFI.

So here’s the disconnect. Our system does not provide for or require any additional training after the ink is dry on the temporary certificate. The DPE and the Newb’s pilot friends all sagely offer the bromide that “now you’ve got a license to learn” but none of them provide any specifics as to how that additional knowledge (whatever it is) should be obtained. Nor does our system require or mandate such, and pilots are not known for their willing acceptance of suggestions or recommendations for improvement, especially if time, effort, money, study or thought is involved.

So in a nutshell everybody who is at a higher level than the Newb is telling them they need to know more than they know now, but nobody will provide a roadmap to do it. So if she’s like most pilots, Kim’s acquisition of this seemingly vital knowledge will be obtained in some helter-skelter hit-or-miss trial-and-error word-of-mouth old-wives-tale fashion that is suspect at best and potentially fatal at worst. Unfortunately, that’s the case with most other young pilots too.

Unlike the military, airlines and most 135 operations, GA does not provide or require any apprenticeship or mentorship opportunities for real-life operations. Instead, the Newb PPL is left to his own devices to analyze his/her weaknesses and seek the solutions. There’s no requirement that they spend any time watching somebody else to it, or to ever spend even a minute in the right seat of their own airplane or any other airplane seeing how it could be done better than they have muddled through developing their own methods. If Kim could ride with Gruber for a few trips, or if she were required to obtain some initial operating experience (IOE) in actual day-to-day flying prior to carrying passengers, she would see and hear enough good stuff to last a lifetime and work off some of the rough edges.

The reason I know this stuff is because I’ve been doing it in one form or another for 50+ years from both sides of the teaching/learning and re-learning spectrum and have seen the results. I’d like to say that I was one of the naturals for whom everything came easy and that my performance set the curve for others, and would do so except that:

1. Nothing could be further from the truth.
2. Somebody who knew me “back when” might see this post and expose the fraud.

Truth is, I had been a PPL for 10+ years and had accumulated a few hundred hours including some long cross-country trips before I was exposed to the invaluable training that showed me how it should be done and has stood me in good stead for the ensuing years. This training wasn’t required, wasn’t part of a plan, and wasn’t something that I felt was particularly needed, since everything had gone pretty well for quite a while and I was comfortable that I was doing it well, based on:

1. My limited knowledge at the time.
2. The fact that I’d never seen anyone else do it.

My first venture into lease/ownership was in a Mooney 20F Executive owned by a young TWA captain. When we made the deal, I had quite a bit of PIC time in both Mooneys and Bonanzas, and met the qualifications of his insurance policy. His opening statement was that “rather than a check-out, I’d like for you to ride right-seat for a few trips with me prior to taking off on your own. The trips will be at my expense and to places I need to go, but I want you to see how I operate the plane and fly the trips, in hopes that you’ll know how I’d like for it to be done.” Based on his demeanor, I didn’t think any other option was available, so we did it.

I’ll never forget my impression of seeing him do things so smoothly and his ability to stay ahead of the airplane, do things on a timely basis (why wait until descent to listen to ATIS) communicate succinctly and smoothly, and the orderly and seemingly effortless methods that he employed to make the flights a “piece of cake.” For the first time, I became aware of the of the value of just sitting and watching things happen, to be able to ask questions about things I didn’t know or couldn’t figure out, and to do all that without having any brain cells tied up with flying the airplane.

Having seen the benefits of such exposure, and having incorporated them into my own routines, and long before I was a CFI, I made a habit of offering the right seat to friends and acquaintances who had become pilots but hadn’t had the opportunity to fly many actual trips as PIC. Many of them had the same reaction that I did when first exposed to a better way to do things, and I wish that all pilots could/would obtain such experience. Needless to say, whenever I check out a pilot in a new-to-him airplane, his first hour is spent in the right seat.
 
My first venture into lease/ownership was in a Mooney 20F Executive owned by a young TWA captain. When we made the deal, I had quite a bit of PIC time in both Mooneys and Bonanzas, and met the qualifications of his insurance policy. His opening statement was that “rather than a check-out, I’d like for you to ride right-seat for a few trips with me prior to taking off on your own. The trips will be at my expense and to places I need to go, but I want you to see how I operate the plane and fly the trips, in hopes that you’ll know how I’d like for it to be done.” Based on his demeanor, I didn’t think any other option was available, so we did it.

I’ll never forget my impression of seeing him do things so smoothly and his ability to stay ahead of the airplane, do things on a timely basis (why wait until descent to listen to ATIS) communicate succinctly and smoothly, and the orderly and seemingly effortless methods that he employed to make the flights a “piece of cake.” For the first time, I became aware of the of the value of just sitting and watching things happen, to be able to ask questions about things I didn’t know or couldn’t figure out, and to do all that without having any brain cells tied up with flying the airplane.

Having seen the benefits of such exposure, and having incorporated them into my own routines, and long before I was a CFI, I made a habit of offering the right seat to friends and acquaintances who had become pilots but hadn’t had the opportunity to fly many actual trips as PIC. Many of them had the same reaction that I did when first exposed to a better way to do things, and I wish that all pilots could/would obtain such experience. Needless to say, whenever I check out a pilot in a new-to-him airplane, his first hour is spent in the right seat.

I'd agree with the points of the sermon (mostly).

My similar experience (although it didn't take me 10 years):

Early on in my PPL training I got the chance to fly right seat in my instructor's Navajo a few times. This instilled in me much of the same as Wayne described in his sermon. Prior to that point, I thought I wasn't so bad in the 172. After all, I could get it in the air and land it, trim within +/- 200 ft, and was generally meeting the PTS with way fewer hours than required for the checkride.

Then I see the 6000-hour pilot take this 6500 lb 620-hp (combined) plane and fly it as if it was an extension of his arms and legs, whereas driving his truck seems like a horrific unnatural act. His communication with ATC was more clear than his communication with me in plain English.

So I realized I had a much higher bar to aim for than originally. Definitely a lot of value in watching someone else who's more experienced than you fly. I used to complain about that, now I try to get as much of it as I can.
 
So, how could we encourage that kind of mentor mentality and how could we match new pilots to mentor pilots? Maybe an match.com kind of thing with lists of pilots willing to mentor newbies that could be handed out from the DPE with a comment that now you have your license to learn here are some people willing to help you in the transition?
That. Ight work but it requires folks to care enough to do it on both sides.
I looked at the aopa web site at the mentor list area once and was willing to mentor a couple of people but I'm out here and they weren't.... Anyway, this is good food for thought. I might change some of my CFI ing
 
So, how could we encourage that kind of mentor mentality and how could we match new pilots to mentor pilots? Maybe an match.com kind of thing with lists of pilots willing to mentor newbies that could be handed out from the DPE with a comment that now you have your license to learn here are some people willing to help you in the transition?
That. Ight work but it requires folks to care enough to do it on both sides.
I looked at the aopa web site at the mentor list area once and was willing to mentor a couple of people but I'm out here and they weren't.... Anyway, this is good food for thought. I might change some of my CFI ing
Jeanie, you know that my background was in mapping. As a new private pilot, riding in the back as the camera operator with the pilots I worked with allowed me to learn by observation, even if they were not actively trying to teach me anything. As others have stated, I think that riding along, just as an observer can be helpful because there is no pressure to perform.
 
When I started one of my mentors suggested I enroll in "Project Pilot." I think it was an AOPA program. The basic idea was having someone who was supposed to help mentor me through my early flying. Well, the program itself didn't help much, but the mentor did continue to mentor me. The idea was good, since it was supposed to pair student pilots with mentors.

What I've always told my students is that instructors are for use both during and after the rating has been acquired, and tried to push the concept of continuous improvement with students. I think results have varied. The people who got ratings mainly to get ratings don't fly enough, but then again also are aware of their limitations and pretty much restrict themselves to relatively low-risk flying. The people who fly more seriously do use me for continuous training.

Suggestions like an IPC every 6 months regardless of how many instrument approaches or going up for a flight with an instructor every few months regardless of flight time is good. I also try to bring less experienced pilots along on trips that I do so they can observe what I do, and learn from it. So far they've all said they've learned a good amount.

Of course, they could be lying.
 
I tried. AOPA doesn't do the Pilot Project anymore. It costs nothing for them to host on their website, no liability, etc. I don't mean to start another thread about AOPA not providing value, but this is my first example of something simple they could do (or continue doing) that would give back to the pilot community.

Great story, Wayne. Maybe I missed it, but who's Kim?
 
What's the worse that could happen? assuming you're smart enough to NOT hold the inputs or kick in full rudder?

You'll be in a death spiral - spiral dive - etc

I don't see a cessna ending up on its back (assuming you let go of the controls and don't aggravate things) - certainly nose down, in a steep bank and speed heading for redline - then again Ron has probably spun 5000 times more than I.

most don't get spin training during PPL training but I would hope you got plenty of spiral dive recoveries in right?
 
The unusual attitude under the hood of nose down, turning, speed increasing is a recovery from a spiral. Just in case you aren't sure what Renjamin was referring to.
 
Fun for some, not for others however, it's fairly important in the "this could save your **** one day" category

If you practice it often enough that it becomes an automatic fix without the adrenaline rush of anxiety then that would be a good thing
 
I tried. AOPA doesn't do the Pilot Project anymore. It costs nothing for them to host on their website, no liability, etc. I don't mean to start another thread about AOPA not providing value, but this is my first example of something simple they could do (or continue doing) that would give back to the pilot community.

Great story, Wayne. Maybe I missed it, but who's Kim?
Project Pilot is still alive at http://projectpilot.aopa.org/projectpilot/. I still have my hat from when I was a mentor, but I've had no mentees lately.

I think Kim is Kimberly Ann.
 
It's days unavailable if you try to go further.
:dunno: I can log in, see the students I've already mentored, see tips on mentoring, etc. Where do you see an "unavailable" message, because I hope to sign up another student this week, and don't want to send them there if it isn't functioning.

Ah, I tried to access the student or mentor directories and see the message
This feature is temporarily disabled. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I tried calling the office, but they're closed for the holiday.
 
Would toss out there that "the system" does provide for continuing education bu it's poorly Marketed and even more poorly utilized...

Garnering Wings program credits for renewing the BFR versus the traditional BFR is a step in the right direction toward continuous learning and training.

It isn't perfect by a long shot, but if a young/inexperienced pilot were to tell themselves that they wanted to attain the Master Wings goal, and chased it hard for personal reasons (since it's certainly not required), they'd be better off than waiting two years between BFRs.

Seminars, specific flight tasks and focused training, and continuous learning... All better than an hour of ground and an hour of air work every two years.

Complaints:

- Lack of credits higher than Basic at the vast majority of ground school/seminar functions.
- Awful website design. Login box off to the right where advertisements typically live and are ignored, site doesn't take you directly to your current status/goals but instead you hunt around for the link for it, database lookups and credits insanely slow to load, zero thought given to user interface or de-cluttering the UI.
- CFIs don't seem interested nor even mention the program, and in some cases have no idea how to confirm credits... Let alone understand the program.
 
I tried. AOPA doesn't do the Pilot Project anymore. It costs nothing for them to host on their website, no liability, etc. I don't mean to start another thread about AOPA not providing value, but this is my first example of something simple they could do (or continue doing) that would give back to the pilot community.

Great story, Wayne. Maybe I missed it, but who's Kim?

Hi I'm Kim, nice to meet you.

As mentioned before, when I called AOPA (I wanted a mentor) they told me they didn't do it anymore since long ago it literally got turned into a DATING SERVICE which wasn't what they intended. I don't know if they meant the men were preying on the women, or the women were husband shopping for a rich pilot, or what, but that is LITERALLY what they told me when I called.

Oh and I've said to others (in person) what was said about me here: not all pilots will admit to ALL their mistakes, especially potentially dangerous or illegal ones. In doing so at first I was venting (as a student) but the PMs and overwhelming feedback has been that it helps others to know it is OK to talk about that stuff and learning can come from it.
 
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