severe turbulence

SkyHog

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Everything Offends Me
That was a first. On my flight from kabq-katl we went through severe turbulence. Pilot said we went through a windshift of 040@20 to 270@150. Lasted about 20 minutes and I gotta say...it was fun :) couldn't even drink my bloody mary mix.

In other news, t-mobile's 3g network is badass. Excuse the lack of capitals I'm using my g1 to post this
 
That was a first. On my flight from kabq-katl we went through severe turbulence. Pilot said we went through a windshift of 040@20 to 270@150. Lasted about 20 minutes and I gotta say...it was fun :) couldn't even drink my bloody mary mix.

In other news, t-mobile's 3g network is badass. Excuse the lack of capitals I'm using my g1 to post this

Yeahbut.. They're already up to 4G in Japan. Why didn't T-Mobile wait a few months and leap-frog AT&T!?
 
Yeahbut.. They're already up to 4G in Japan. Why didn't T-Mobile wait a few months and leap-frog AT&T!?

Wait a few months(!!!! for a national network buildout?) and not sell net enabled phones in the meantime? :fingerwag:
 
Wait a few months(!!!! for a national network buildout?) and not sell net enabled phones in the meantime? :fingerwag:

It was more of a rhetorical question than anything.....

.... but since you brought it up, we'll keep going down the rabbit hole :D. Why does it make sense to invest millions in infrastructure that is already outdated before you even implement it full-scale? 3G isn't nationwide yet either, so why not go ahead and bury the companies currently running 3G with a your new 4G network? Sure, you can't sell to the market as 'Nationwide coverage', but neither can 3G. My theory is that, by skipping 3G and going to 4G, you will have an advantage over your competition that is forced to stick with their 3G network long enough to cover their implementation costs. If you have to pay for your own 3G network roll-out, why not go with the higher costs of the 4G and gain and maintain a larger marketshare while your competitors try to catch up.

This is an open-ended discussion, buy they way. I'm just asking questions for the sake of argument. :)
 
It was more of a rhetorical question than anything.....

.... but since you brought it up, we'll keep going down the rabbit hole :D. Why does it make sense to invest millions in infrastructure that is already outdated before you even implement it full-scale? 3G isn't nationwide yet either, so why not go ahead and bury the companies currently running 3G with a your new 4G network? Sure, you can't sell to the market as 'Nationwide coverage', but neither can 3G. My theory is that, by skipping 3G and going to 4G, you will have an advantage over your competition that is forced to stick with their 3G network long enough to cover their implementation costs. If you have to pay for your own 3G network roll-out, why not go with the higher costs of the 4G and gain and maintain a larger marketshare while your competitors try to catch up.

This is an open-ended discussion, buy they way. I'm just asking questions for the sake of argument. :)

Scott will have to say what he can about how it works. I have no idea.

I know that about all of the cell towers are contracted so somewhere in there the mobile company has to get them to put in the equipment, or maybe they do send employees and have some access like with a server colo.

My thinking here is I wonder what happens when the first guys show up with 4G whatever equipment.
 
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What are you doing in Atlanta?

i just had a layover enroute to Sarasota, where i am visiting with my ailing grandparents (i thought it was just my grandfather that was now well :()

florida is nice tho....the weather is nicer than Atlanta's lol
 
I bet they over-reported it as 'severe', as airlines often do. (if there was 20 mins of truly 'severe', you would be a smoking hole)
a baby crying - light
passengers stop reading - moderate
cant serve drinks - severe
(the true definitions are pretty specific.)
 
I bet they over-reported it as 'severe', as airlines often do. (if there was 20 mins of truly 'severe', you would be a smoking hole)
a baby crying - light
passengers stop reading - moderate
cant serve drinks - severe
(the true definitions are pretty specific.)
Isn't there "extreme", too?

This stuff is always over-reported, by airliners and by GA. I've been in moderate before, and that was about as much turbulence as I'll ever need.
 
Scott will have to say what he can about how it works. I have no idea.
Part of the whole 4G issue is that 4G does not yet officially exist.

The ITU, part of the UN, is in charge of defining what 4G will be. The term they are using is IMT-ADVanced. IMT-2000 was 3G and is still being expanded upon with the first version of WiMAX aka IEEE802.16e being placed on the approved IMT-2000 technology list earlier this year. IEEE802.16m aka WiMAX2.0 and something called LTE are the early contendors for what will become IMT-ADV sometime in 2010.

The process to define IMT-ADV started about 8 years ago. I was one of the first people to start working on it. IF you ever hear them refer to the IMT-ADV "VAN" diagram, that was me and three other people spending a weekend in Sweden coming up with that definition. It is the single picture of what data rates IMT-ADV must be able to support.

So the question is why build now? Well because it takes about a decade to do a generational built out. 3G has been rolling out since the late 1990's and likely will see at least another 10 years of rollouts and upgrades so that the carriers can get their ROI for the big bucks they spent on acquiring 3G spectrum.

Many countries in Europe sold spectrum at auction but tied it to 3G deployments. If the carrier does not deploy 3G they loose the spectrum. Europe is not alone in this either, but for once the US has got the upper hand in 3G spectrum. Usually the US does dumb spectrum stuff that hurts us when compared to the rest of the globe.

3G has equipment, the cost of equipment is low compared to the WiMAX and the LTE stuff and has capabilities that are mature. Also 3G will work in multi-mode with 2G GSM voice. So there is almost ubiquitous coverage.

Lets also talk about cell site costs.

A base station from a cellular infrastructure equipment vendor costs anywhere from $50k to $100k. Then the carrier must add data lines, battery back up, antenna tower and antennas plus the really high cost items such as the real estate itself. Real estate is the single biggest cost. Due to zoning, NIMBY, and other issues. When you add it all together the cost per cellsite is about $1,000,000!!! Equipment is only about 15% of that cost. So doing an upgrade is not all that cost intensive as long as you can reuse the real estate.

In the US the next highest cost is not the infrastructure equipment but the actual handsets.

In the US carriers still subsidized the handset. That is why you can get a $300 handset for $19.95. The carrier will hold you to a contract to earn back that money from you for the handset. The largest captial expense in a cellular system is the subscriber equipment.
 
i just had a layover enroute to Sarasota, where i am visiting with my ailing grandparents (i thought it was just my grandfather that was now well :()

Roger that. Best wishes to them, Nick.

florida is nice tho....the weather is nicer than Atlanta's lol

Ya that is true. What you saw today we sometimes have for a week at a time during the winter. You should see it tonight -- fog city!
 
Part of the whole 4G issue is that 4G does not yet officially exist.

The ITU, part of the UN, is in charge of defining what 4G will be. The term they are using is IMT-ADVanced. IMT-2000 was 3G and is still being expanded upon with the first version of WiMAX aka IEEE802.16e being placed on the approved IMT-2000 technology list earlier this year. IEEE802.16m aka WiMAX2.0 and something called LTE are the early contendors for what will become IMT-ADV sometime in 2010.

The process to define IMT-ADV started about 8 years ago. I was one of the first people to start working on it. IF you ever hear them refer to the IMT-ADV "VAN" diagram, that was me and three other people spending a weekend in Sweden coming up with that definition. It is the single picture of what data rates IMT-ADV must be able to support.

So the question is why build now? Well because it takes about a decade to do a generational built out. 3G has been rolling out since the late 1990's and likely will see at least another 10 years of rollouts and upgrades so that the carriers can get their ROI for the big bucks they spent on acquiring 3G spectrum.

Many countries in Europe sold spectrum at auction but tied it to 3G deployments. If the carrier does not deploy 3G they loose the spectrum. Europe is not alone in this either, but for once the US has got the upper hand in 3G spectrum. Usually the US does dumb spectrum stuff that hurts us when compared to the rest of the globe.

3G has equipment, the cost of equipment is low compared to the WiMAX and the LTE stuff and has capabilities that are mature. Also 3G will work in multi-mode with 2G GSM voice. So there is almost ubiquitous coverage.

Lets also talk about cell site costs.

A base station from a cellular infrastructure equipment vendor costs anywhere from $50k to $100k. Then the carrier must add data lines, battery back up, antenna tower and antennas plus the really high cost items such as the real estate itself. Real estate is the single biggest cost. Due to zoning, NIMBY, and other issues. When you add it all together the cost per cellsite is about $1,000,000!!! Equipment is only about 15% of that cost. So doing an upgrade is not all that cost intensive as long as you can reuse the real estate.

In the US the next highest cost is not the infrastructure equipment but the actual handsets.

In the US carriers still subsidized the handset. That is why you can get a $300 handset for $19.95. The carrier will hold you to a contract to earn back that money from you for the handset. The largest captial expense in a cellular system is the subscriber equipment.

Interesting. I was under the impression that Japan had jumped to 4G. Are they just running 'full' 3G speed as opposed to our 'almost 3G' coverage here in the midwest?

How long until we see WiMAX hitting the public market? 75Mbps at 30mile range sounds nice.
 
Interesting. I was under the impression that Japan had jumped to 4G. Are they just running 'full' 3G speed as opposed to our 'almost 3G' coverage here in the midwest?
Everybody but the US is running full speed 3G. We are about 5 years behind the rest of the world

How long until we see WiMAX hitting the public market? 75Mbps at 30mile range sounds nice.
Nomadic WiMAX has been out for several years but the mobile variant was launched in September in Baltimore, soon in Chicago and a couple of other states.

http://xohm.com/
 
I bet they over-reported it as 'severe', as airlines often do. (if there was 20 mins of truly 'severe', you would be a smoking hole)
a baby crying - light
passengers stop reading - moderate
cant serve drinks - severe
(the true definitions are pretty specific.)

i dont know what they reported. from my understanding of the definition it was severe. i think extreme is plane breakable, not severe, but i could be wrong.
 
Even if I bounced my head off the ceiling of the piper, I would still only report light chop.
 
i dont know what they reported. from my understanding of the definition it was severe. i think extreme is plane breakable, not severe, but i could be wrong.

Severe turbulence requires an aircraft inspection upon landing. You said you couldn't drink your bloody mary? If it was severe turbulence you'd be wearing the bloody mary
 
Everybody but the US is running full speed 3G. We are about 5 years behind the rest of the world

OK.. That's what had me thinking that they were up to 4G, but they are simply running 'full' 3G. Gotcha.

Nomadic WiMAX has been out for several years but the mobile variant was launched in September in Baltimore, soon in Chicago and a couple of other states.

http://xohm.com/

Nice. Which means in about 10 years it will make it to my area. ;)


..... and now back to our regularly scheduled thread (sorry Nick for the hijack) ....
 
Severe turbulence requires an aircraft inspection upon landing. You said you couldn't drink your bloody mary? If it was severe turbulence you'd be wearing the bloody mary
when i get home ill have to look up the definitions but i am pretty sure that is not correct. i think you're confusing severe with extreme
 
The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) classifies aircraft turbulence as follows:

Light: Causes slight, erratic changes in altitude and/or attitude, and rhythmic bumpiness as occupants feel a slight strain against seat belts.

Moderate: Similar to light, but of greater intensity, with rapid bumps or jolts, and occupants feel a slight strain against seat belts.

Severe: Turbulence that causes large, abrupt changes in altitude and attitude, and large variations in airspeed, with the aircraft temporarily out of control. Occupants are forced violently against their seat belts and objects are tossed about, with food service and walking impossible.

Extreme: The aircraft is tossed about so violently that it is practically impossible to control, and structural damage may occur.
 
thanks scott!

with that said, i stand by calling it severe
 
when i get home ill have to look up the definitions but i am pretty sure that is not correct. i think you're confusing severe with extreme

All part 121 carriers I know of require a write-up and aircraft inspection if the aircraft encountered SEVERE turbulence.
 
All part 121 carriers I know of require a write-up and aircraft inspection if the aircraft encountered SEVERE turbulence.

wow, really? do they require decommission for a plane exposed to extreme then?
 
Yep, I concur.

Me too. Hit severe once halfway between RKD and AUG. +350 feet, +37 kts (hit 275KIAS, Vmo is 248kts) in the span of maybe 2-3 seconds. At flight idle we couldn't arrest the climb or acceleration, and it flexed the airframe enough to set off both the pax door and cargo door open warning lights. Out the backside of whatever we hit, we had to over-torque the engines by 200lbs/side to shallow the -500ft/min decent at +10* nose up and Venr.

Long story short, we had to run the engines on the ground from 11pm until the mechanics got there on their chartered King Air at 4:45am so the fuel tanks would be as close to empty as possible for the required spar inspection. The plane was down for about a day and a half while they tore through that thing. No damage or cracks were found, so it was test flown and returned to service three days later.
 
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