Seminole Ditching

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
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Dave Siciliano
Al Benzing, a friend that is a captain for Northwest sent this post.
Thought if would be of interest.

In this case, having the second engine gave the crew a lot of time to arrange help.

Best,

Dave

==============================================================

Had an interesting flight from Portland to HNL today. While enroute we heard an chatter on the 'common' Freq (123.45) about an aircraft in distress. For the next 3 hours we listened to relays of messages to get the Coast Guard C-130 and Navy P-3's set up for Rendezvous and attempt to assist. For an hour or so we could also hear the Seminole and Rescue aircraft. It wasn't until 4 or 5 hours later that we heard a news report that the pilot (and passenger!) had survived the ditching and were picked up by a ship. Below are a few notes I made enroute.

A/C VHCZE Planning to Ditch near EXAMS? (400nm NE Hilo.)

Piper Seminole w one engine out. Female pilot (Shirley?) w another escorting Seminole VHCZI (Aussies? based on accent)

At 2158Z Position N2746 W14113 - heading direct Hilo.

At 2239Z Position N2715 W14214 at 4500' and 91 kts Ground Speed. 837 nm fm Hilo.

Mag Track 228 degrees. Fuel 5 hours (58 gals) Plan to ditch w 1 hour fuel remaining.

Coast Guard C-130 (Rescue 1714) launched out of HNL to intercept.

Can drop rafts & radio & survival kit. No swimmers from C-130. Helo's only have 150nm range

Rendezvous with C-130 planned at:

N2435 W14717 at 0025Z

First visual contact by two Navy P-3's (enroute to Pt Mugi, CA).

P3's on scene at 2350Z

One plan is to have Taiwanese fishing boat w/i 2 hrs after estimated ditching time.

Would be long time in the water and trying to find better alternative.

Cactus 938 & AA283 assisting.

They were relaying many messages on Positions, etc, and conditions.

Three-way relays to/fm Coast Guard, Oakland Center (via another A/C with
SATCOM)

We could hear (them) for several hours, along with the Seminole pilots for quite a while.

The pilots in both Seminoles were communicating well, and prepared for ditching.



New plan to have her stay aloft 30 mins longer, with heading to be near a vessel.

Another concern is whether the other Seminole would have enough fuel to make Hilo.

Considering the length of time he was flying formation at 90kts. Apparently he made it.



At 0033Z Position N2539 W14514 3 hrs fuel (last position we heard)



After we landed in HNL - and several hours later, we say the following news
report:



2 people rescued after plane ditches north of Hilo

Plane was 535 miles northeast of Hawaii

Star-Bulletin Staff



A small plane that developed engine trouble while flying from Santa Barbara, California to Hilo ditched into the ocean 535 miles northwest of Hilo at 4 p.m. today.

The Coast Guard helped coordinate the rescue of the two people on board the Piper Seminole.

Once the two people had safely escaped the aircraft, they were rescued from the water by a small boat crew from the container ship Virginius, the Coast Guard said in a written news release. The survivors are now on board the container ship, which is bound for China. A nurse aboard the container ship examined the pair for injuries and reported none.

A Navy P-3 and crew from Patrol Squadron 2 from Kaneohe met the plane about
535 miles northeast of Hilo. A C-130 and crew, from Coast Guard Air Station Barbers Point, rendezvoused with the Piper Seminole at about 3 p.m. The crew of the C-130 made a makeshift runway with flares on the ocean's surface. The impromptu runway aided the pilot of the distressed aircraft judge wind speed, direction and altitude.

The Coast Guard's Joint Rescue Coordination Center in Honolulu received a call from the Federal Aviation Administration in Oakland at 11 a.m.
requesting assistance. The pilot of the distressed plane reported losing an engine approximately 1,000 miles off the coast of California.
 
I dont understand. Not being a twin driver, If they were able to ask the crew to "stay aloft 30 mins longer". It seems as though it was flying. Why couldnt they make shore?
 
Michael said:
I dont understand. Not being a twin driver, If they were able to ask the crew to "stay aloft 30 mins longer". It seems as though it was flying. Why couldnt they make shore?
I would imagine there was recognition that - on one engine with the disproportional loss of efficiency - they no longer had enough fuel to make Hawaii.


http://avstop.com/Technical/twins.htm
 
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So a twin operating on 1 engine will use more fuel than operating on 2 engines? I did not know that. I would have thought the opposite.
 
Michael said:
So a twin operating on 1 engine will use more fuel than operating on 2 engines? I did not know that. I would have thought the opposite.
That's generally true for a couple reasons. One is the differential thrust is of course sub optimal efficiency wise and the other is that the remaining engine may have to be operated at high power/temp (limited cooling due to low speed combined with high power) where leaning for max efficiency is detrimental to the engine.

It's also possible that their ferry tank setup precluded delivering all the fuel to one engine. IOW there might have been fuel in a tank that could be used by the engine that was still running. There's even a small chance that the pilot was unable to feather the prop on the dead engine which would create excess drag and reduce range further, but I'd guess that there would have been discussions on the air about remedies for that.

I also find it interesting that the POH provides little or no information on range with one engine caged.
 
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Here's a pic of the plane in the water. I'm sure the news folks will provide more details.

What this does show, is in a twin, with one out, not only can one proceed for a substantial distance, one would also have a lot of time to seek assistance and arrange for rescue if a suitable landing area couldn't be reached. In this case, it's about 3,300 miles from the west coast to Honolulu--of course slightly less to some point of land, but still a lot of time over water. If one ventures to fly around the world without going up to Alaska, this is the longest over water leg.

Pic attached.

Anyway, Al listened to most of the incident while it was unfolding.

Best,

Dave
 

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Dave Siciliano said:
In this case, it's about 3,300 miles from the west coast to Honolulu--of course slightly less to some point of land, but still a lot of time over water.

That suggests the engine failure occurred a tad more than the 1,000 miles off the California coast which the newspaper reported. At 1,000 miles they would have made it back to shore if they'd turned around (given where they ended up). Clearly the flight crew thought they were beyond the point of no return.

Added to the list of range problems a one-engine twin has is maximum maintainable altitude. That altitude may be lower than cruise and hence less efficient.

Glad the crew is OK. It's going to be a looong trip to China...

Regards,
Joe
 
Joe B said:
That suggests the engine failure occurred a tad more than the 1,000 miles off the California coast which the newspaper reported.

Regards,
Joe

I'm not following your logic Joe; help me out. If the Seminole flew on one at say, 110 knots for three hours and wound up just over 500 miles from Hilo, seems to me the failure would have been 800 to 900 from Hilo. How'd you get 1,000 from CA? That would be more like 2,100 in my mind.

Ha! The proverbial 'slow boat to China', I was thinkin the same thing. Seems this was part of an Aussie ferry operation. Wonder if there's anyway to have someone else link up with them and bring them somewhere they can fly home from. Also wonder if they get charged anything for all this assistance; this was a business deal if it makes any difference.

Best,

Dave
 
One of the guys on guys on the Beechlist said CNN picked this up this morning. The Seminole floated about four minutes giving the crew time to get out and get into a life raft. I'll see if I can find a link to a vid.

Dave
 
O.K. Joe, I see now. The Coast Guard reported they reported engine trouble 1,000 miles out of SBA. AOPA Flight Planner shows the distance from SBA to Hilo to be 2064 miles; so, right in the middle somewhere.

I'm embarrassed about reporting the mileage as 3,300; last time I was in Rockford, a very cute girl behind the FBO counter asked me how far it was from there to Hawaii; deftly showing my GPS abilities, I cranked that in and it's what popped into my head!

Sorry.

Seems she flew almost another 500 miles on one! Still, don't know what the plane weight was or if all the remaining fuel could be used by the operating engine.

Best,

Dave
 
Yikes. Good for them there was so much help available.

That's one reason I get nervous just crossing the Chesapeake with my single. I mean, if a twin can have problems. I know, a light twin, but nevertheless. Ya never know...
 
Thanks for the link, an interesting article.

Flying across the Pacific without a liferaft?? Very good thing they found a ship!

Regards,
Joe
 
Joe B said:
Thanks for the link, an interesting article.

Flying across the Pacific without a liferaft?? Very good thing they found a ship!

Regards,
Joe

My thoughts precisely! How can a ferry operator not do this? I'm pretty sure it's required under ICAO.

Since they ran on one for five hours, they had a lot of flexibility, but when one was shut down, they were effectively flying a single.

Dave
 
Here's a link from AVweb's mini-article:
http://www.avweb.com/newswire/12_24a/briefs/192443-1.html

Interesting note:
"Good Samaritan vessels can decide to do whatever they want with passengers they pick up," Coast Guard Petty Officer Brooksann Epiceno said. "So those people could ride all the way to China or the captain can say, 'Oh, I don't mind pulling over.' "
 
A light twin is not the only bird that can have that problem. I believe a Gulfstream 3 and a Westwinds 1, and quite a few others can't make it on one jet engine. They have to descend to a lower altitude and when they do the fuel burn goes way up. They have never had it happen, but a Westwind 1, which is a long range jet, if it has a major hyd failure will drop the landing gear. Then's is only a matter of how long before they go in the water. You know Hawaii is the most isolated piece of land on Earth.
The British 747 that went from Japan to England on 3 engines had to land short. The British FAA says that's ok, but the US FAA says abolutely no to operating a jumbo on 3 out of 4.
Julian Codding
Oklahoma
 
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