scud flying VFR @ 500 ft AGL question

[bflynn]

I know this is probably answered in another thread but....

What if I'm flying VFR and need to go to 500 ft AGL to stay under the cloud layer and I'm flying over a populated area? Do I have to ask for approval to do that if I'm outside a controlled area? And if I wanted to land at a class E I think I'm supposed to ask for a special VFR. I was just thinking if I was flying today around north of Denver.

Do you really need to ask these question?

Outside of a controlled area, who would you be talking to? Flying VFR, who would you ever ask permission to do something from?

If you don't know whether or not you need to ask for special VFR, then you really probably are not ready to do it.

As far as flying 500 AGL above a populated area, it isn't legal. You need 1000 ft. And if it was considered a non-congested area, you'd need 500' above the nearest structure.

On top of that, there is a name for people who regularly run scud at 500'. What to guess what it is?

 

[denverpilot]

On top of that, there is a name for people who regularly run scud at 500'. What to guess what it is?

Dead, due to blunt force trauma.

 

[N801BH]

Dead, due to blunt force trauma.

I was gonna say " The lead story on the evening news".

 

[Palmpilot]

I used to scud run at 500 feet along the Pacific Coast from time to time. One of the things I especially liked about the Oregon Coast in particular was that there is an airport about every ten minutes, and the ceilings were stable enough so that doing a 180 and landing at the last airport would not have been a problem. There were definitely times when I needed to call ATC and ask for a clearance in order to continue towards my destination.

 

[milestogo]

Do you have a link to those statistics? The ones I've seen like that were not from the FAA, and used bogus methodology.

I'm not advocating VFR into IMC, but I'm concerned that exaggerating the fatality rates can backfire, by inducing panic in inadvertent IMC situations.

I think this gets quoted to scare folks into avoiding IMC (well intentioned perhaps). I am not IRed but with a safety pilot I've flown complex instructions quite well with reference to instruments. This doesn't mean I'm complacent and I've never flown into IMC. Maybe there are some pilots that lose it in seconds. Maybe in high stress situations this happens. But I think it's better for a pilot to understand that they can remain calm and control their airplane with basic scan reference to instruments.

 

[skidoo]

I have been thinking about the 700 ft /1200 ft class G and 500 ft AGL scenarios and a real life use for them. It occurred to me the benefit of the 1 mile/clear of clouds below 1200 ft recently when I observed weather of about 2K ceiling in my valley, but clear and beyond a couple valleys over. The only way to get out of the valley (VFR) would be to go through a pass close to ground level, say 500ft AGL and clear of the clouds. There would not be a need to be close to the clouds nor ground except for maybe a half mile of a known area. At the time, I did not try such, but just though about a what if...

I would not want to be just 500 ft AGL and just clear of clouds continuous for a flight, even rural and legal, especially in the mountain region. But, I can see the benefit of being legal to get from one valley to the next.

 

[roncachamp]

Not a viable plan. FAA statistics indicate that for non-rated VFR pilots who enter IMC the duration of that flight before losing control is measured in scant minutes.

An unreliable statistic, as it's unlikely they have reliable figures for non-rated VFR pilots who enter IMC and do not lose control.

 

[Palmpilot]

I have been thinking about the 700 ft /1200 ft class G and 500 ft AGL scenarios and a real life use for them. It occurred to me the benefit of the 1 mile/clear of clouds below 1200 ft recently when I observed weather of about 2K ceiling in my valley, but clear and beyond a couple valleys over. The only way to get out of the valley (VFR) would be to go through a pass close to ground level, say 500ft AGL and clear of the clouds. There would not be a need to be close to the clouds nor ground except for maybe a half mile of a known area. At the time, I did not try such, but just though about a what if...

I would not want to be just 500 ft AGL and just clear of clouds continuous for a flight, even rural and legal, especially in the mountain region. But, I can see the benefit of being legal to get from one valley to the next.

In order to attempt squeezing through a pass like that, I would need three things:

1. Winds light enough so that downdrafts would not be an issue;

2. Before entering the pass, I would need to be able to see through to better conditions on the other side; and

3. Before entering the pass, I would need to know that there was enough room to turn around in on the other side.

(If I've left anything out, someone will probably speak up.)

 

[Mafoo]

Not a viable plan. FAA statistics indicate that for non-rated VFR pilots who enter IMC the duration of that flight before losing control is measured in scant minutes.

So I had a lesson a month or so ago, and my CFI needed to get some scales to Maine. He asked if I wanted to split the cost, and do the trip? I said hell yea.

My home base was VFR, but the trip required IFR, so he filed the plan, took off, and requested an altitude that was going to put us in the clouds. This was going to be some hood time without needed a hood.

I do have to say flying into the clouds was the coolest thing I have yet done, and skimming the tops of them was the second. Awesome experience.

However I didn't fly any different when I entered them. I did my 6 pack scan just like I would have done under the hood, and changed course a few times while in the clouds.

I don't know what option I would take if I got in the situation posted. If it happened today, I think the first thing I would do is call flight following, and ask them there recommendation. If it was "the cloud layer is 1500 feet, ascend through them and head to ....", I have every confidence in the world I would execute that move without issue.

 

[Palmpilot]

If it was "the cloud layer is 1500 feet, ascend through them and head to ....", I have every confidence in the world I would execute that move without issue.

By the way, I don't think they would say "ascend," because it sounds too much like "descend." (I realized this the one time I said it as a student pilot.) The AIM uses "climb" and "descend."

 

[zaitcev]

Denver

Denver is very unflat, and I actually had a small lesson in it just this May. On departure from FTG we had quite a bit of trouble getting over the "ridge" to COS. The clouds would've pressed us right into the ground if we tried to get under. Even closer to the city, all the little streams form kinds of valleys that are deep enough to make you navigate around obstructions when you're 500 ft off the ground on average.

 

[steingar]

Stuff happens. Problem with conditions is they often change gradually, so you're in it before you realize. I would like to think that someone would pull the plug long before they were stuck 500 feet above the ground (lots of cell towers) but if not, best thing to do is land at the nearest and figure out how not to get into that situation again.

 

[Apache123]

On the topic of scud running vfr, anyone here done it around Madison, WI? There's a set of towers that catch my attention every time I pass through there whether I'm 0'AGL up through 4500'MSL.

 

[denverpilot]

Denver is very unflat, and I actually had a small lesson in it just this May. On departure from FTG we had quite a bit of trouble getting over the "ridge" to COS. The clouds would've pressed us right into the ground if we tried to get under. Even closer to the city, all the little streams form kinds of valleys that are deep enough to make you navigate around obstructions when you're 500 ft off the ground on average.

Getting to COS direct, you're crossing the Palmer Divide. It's known for creating clouds with a Southeast wind (our traditional upslope when a low sets up southeast of Colorado and pumps moisture out of the Gulf) and sometimes even a north wind (our traditional winter storms brining cold air out of the Arctic).

Any other direction wind, it's usually bumpy. Heh.

The clouds like to hang around low near the top of the Divide while on either side can be CAVU or ceilings that are plenty high for good VFR. The ridgeline creates its own weather.

The AWOS at Monument Hill is both for airplanes and for CDOT and I-25 traffic. Monument Hill gets low clouds, bad vis, and road icing that sometimes is incredible. 20 miles away, nothing.

 

[onwards]

SVFR

 

[flyingron]

Anybody read the never again post this month (can't remember if it was the AOPA or EAA rag) where the guy was thanking himself for blasting an impromptu VFR descent through IMC based solely on an ATITAPA call on the UNICOM.

PLEASE, confess your sins and let ATC know you are making an escape from/through IMC. I still remember the "Do you know how close you came to hitting another aircraft" comment from the Richmond controllers after some bozo did that and told them only after the fact.