Saying No--nicely

[Dave Siciliano]

Just practicin!!

Trouble is, I just can't say it when I need to sometimes.

For some reason, lately I have a bunch of folks stepping over the line and asking (or sometimes insisting) I let them do things I don't want to. How do y'all get some of these people to back off??

Had a guy want to go out to may hanger and look at my oxygen system: He's thinking about getting one. Calls up and says, "what's your hanger combination, I need to go in there and look at your oxygen system.". Well, I don't give that out. He says he knows how busy I am and that it'll be hard for him to get there when I can--so just give him the combination. Seesh.

How bout the guy next door (just purchased a building behind my hanger. Walks out to my baron when I'm pre-flighting and starts telling me how his kid wants to fly and that I should teach him in my plane. I begged off with insurance coverage stuff, but what in the world is he thinking?

Asked some folks coming to a hanger party to park outside the security gate and walk in. Next thing I know, one has given the gate code to another and another and 40 or more cars are parked along the ramp in front of my hanger.

Sometimes I just get tired of being nice.

Actually had a friend go in my hanger (was a neighbor for a long time) and borrow something. I went in that weekend and it wasn't there. So, I started calling around and he said, oh yea. I borrowed it. I asked him to please let me know if he borrowed something and asked why he needed it as he didn't have a plane at the moment. He said he didn't need it; another guy did. He said he knew it was just sitting there and I wasn't using it. I just blew my stack and told him how much I valued his friendship, but wasn't in the tool rental business. Geeesh!!

These are just a few examples. How do y'all keep this under control? I like being a nice guy, but some of this is just over the line. I don't think people should even be asking for some of this!! Sometimes I'm really just caught short by their lack of sensitivity and thought they have some right to my hanger and plane (amoung other things).


Best,

Dave
Baron 322KS

 

[Skip Miller]

I just blew my stack and told him how much I valued his friendship, but wasn't in the tool rental business. Geeesh!!

I think you have hit on it. Just like with kids, you have to establish the boundaries and let them know where the boundaries are. You also have to let them know when they cross the boundaries.

I'd take up a collection from the 40 drivers who came through the fence, to buy a new lock or a new locksmith. Use 9/11 to tell them that they have now invalidated an important part of the airport security and you don't feel like you should bear the financial burden of fixing the problem that they helped create.

-Skip

 

[fgcason]

Trouble is, I just can't say it when I need to sometimes.

These are just a few examples. How do y'all keep this under control? I like being a nice guy, but some of this is just over the line. I don't think people should even be asking for some of this!! Sometimes I'm really just caught short by their lack of sensitivity and thought they have some right to my hanger and plane (amoung other things)

That's typical nowadays. It's part of the american "me first" society.

Here's a question for you: What would happen if you walked up to them and asked the same question they're asking you? If you stroll into their place and take their tools without asking, you're likely to end up sitting in the back of a police car with handcuffs on explaining your illegal disrespectable behavior to the police.

Just keep practicing. Set the ground rules. Just say NO! and say it like you mean it and don't back down.


I don't loan out my tools. PERIOD! NQA, forget it, it's not happening, go buy your own. If we're already working on a project together, fine but it's going right back into the box when we're done. And NO, I won't work on your car for free either.

If you want real fun; A while back I had a guy that lived in the apartment complex that I didn't even know beyond seeing him go in/out a few times try to get me to loan him my motorcycle so he could go to sturgis. (it's a Honda BTW) He got really torqued off because I said no. After several minutes of being told about my poor breeding line and bad attitude, all I could do was politely say "check the name on the title and deal with it" and walk off. Replacing the $180 shattered plexiglass windscreen, stolen $100 rain cover and cleaning the eggs off the next morning ALMOST made me ram-the-bas(*&#$-with-the-jeep-without-warning murderous.

Don't get me wrong. I believe in being nice. I use to be a LOT nicer than I am nowadays. I even use to (past tense) stop to help people stranded on the side of the road. Just too many people think I owe them and it's been a one sided game since the 1980's. I limit nice to the very few specific well trusted individuals I know and everyone else can use piano wire seatbelts and go find a bridge piling.

Play fair, be nice... but not if it's going to give them free reign of you and your toys.

 

[sierra]

After several minutes of being told about my poor breeding line and bad attitude

gee in my elitist breeding upbringing asking someone to borrow something like this was def. a sign of poor breeding! when did THIS change?

I freecycle. Most of the time it works out well; sometimes I end up giving someone something who has given me something; sometimes I just end up meeting nice people.

But there are also the MEMEMEMEMEMEMMEEMEME types that respond to every post made within 30 seconds saying "what's your number, where do you live i'll come pick it up". Right. delete. Thinking: 'The point of this whole thing is to decide who gets the gift of my stuff and being rude doesn't put YOU on the list, bozo. Get off the computer and go do something with your life'.

And for some reason I am illiterate: I don't know how to read text message lingo like "UR"? !

I had a coworker in the lab TELL me, "when i have my birthday next April you are going to take me for a ride in your airplane". Yeah. Right. I don't talk to this person unless they talk to me, and now they are going for a ride in my airplane?

Just a funny realization: In Royalty, Good Brooding has a linear family tree. So your friend is a Royal PITA?

 

[poadeleted3]

I just say "no," nicely. For anyone worth a darn, that's all it takes. If it takes more than that, I say "NO" not so nicely, and bear in mind they aren't worth a darn. I've got no issues with being an ***hole to anyone who gives me heartburn.

You said it yourself, some of these things people have no business asking for, or doing (like stealing your tools). They aren't nice, there's no gain to be had in letting them trample you.

 

[Richard]

Boy, what a hot topic this is.

I can really empathize with Dave. It has always been a struggle and it continues to this day to be a struggle. Because I allow it to be. I allow it to be because I refuse to let previous persons influence any new relationship. What that means is just because I've been burned in the past doesn't mean I won't reach out to someone new. They'll prove themselves, but I must say it's running about 11:3 not in favor.

It's not valid to say this is because of decayed moral standards because I have observed the same behavior in folks from the 'greatest generation' down to today's kids.

It's hard to say no. But, as others have said, you gots to lay down the law about something: tools? NO, don't even ask. (but I sometimes break that rule because I rationalize the cost of the tool(s) relative to the job requirement)

I think the answer is to develop the guidelines and stick to the guidelines. Even if that means sticking a post it to your forehead.

Those people who ask to borrow your personal equipment, or who help them selves without your permission, or who make the decision you will do them a favor or boorish brutes. For those types I have no hesitation to say and mean no, no, no. In the case of retribution or vandalism I will take legal action.

A new hire employee asked me to co-sign for a new car he needed. I was appalled, he was only two weeks with the company at the time. Of course I said no. Two days later he stole about $300 of hand tools and caused about $800 in damage to a project. Some people, eh?

 

[Henning]

Just practicin!!

Trouble is, I just can't say it when I need to sometimes.

For some reason, lately I have a bunch of folks stepping over the line and asking (or sometimes insisting) I let them do things I don't want to. How do y'all get some of these people to back off??

It's real easy for me, I'm a prick and everybody knows it so they don't ask me.

 

[RogerT]

It's real easy for me, I'm a prick and everybody knows it so they don't ask me.

Hahaha .. I liked that answer the best.

 

[Anthony]

It's real easy for me, I'm a prick and everybody knows it so they don't ask me.

Yeah right. Nice try Henning.

Boy, Dave and some others you must meet some really disfunctional people. I've had lots of people offer help to me at the airport and other places and I offer help whenever I can. Nobody steals my tools or asks to borrow them and nobody abuses my friendship or has in a long time. Maybe I'm lucky?

Dave, you're a really nice guy and it sounds like some are taking advantage of that, but please don't change your nature. Life is too short to become a curmudgeon.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Dave,

All of the examples you cited were not a problem with you saying "no"--you DID say no, but these people were self-centered enough to not care.

So don't beat yourself up. Or change who you are. I've met you--you're a great, nice guy. Don't let some arrogant jerks change that.

(Man, I was working up the courage to ask for a ride in the new Baron, too, when I ran across this thread!).

 

[gismo]

I had a coworker in the lab TELL me, "when i have my birthday next April you are going to take me for a ride in your airplane". Yeah. Right. I don't talk to this person unless they talk to me, and now they are going for a ride in my airplane?

I'd just tell them "Sure, but you have to bring your own parachute" and see if they're still interested.

 

[gismo]

Dave, I think part of the problem is you come off as a really nice guy and some folks react to that as if they believe you're a sucker to be run over. I personally don't mind loaning things (as long as I get them back) but only to people I trust and/or like. That doesn't stop me from saying no when I feel like it and that's exactly what you need to do. You can be polite (but firm) about it the first time, and anyone who persists beyond that doesn't deserve much consideration.

And for me, that's the answer to your question (how to say no): Just say it politely and stick to it. I don't consider it an affront if someone asks me for something I'm unwilling to accomodate, but I don't feel any obligation to go along unless I want to. Good people will respect that, the others don't matter (well unless it's the boss's wife or something). OTOH I think it's unreasonable to expect others to know whether or not I want to help them until they ask and get an answer.

People who act like they expect that you (and the world, probably) owe them something because they want it often find that many folks will comply simply because they were taught to be polite and helpful. Some of these people will actually become outraged when you refuse, but for me that just cements my answer and eliminates my need to be polite.

 

[bbchien]

I never give out the combination or key to my hangar. It's known that I won't.

 

[wsuffa]

Dave,

my piece of advice would be to say no, and mean it. You don't owe folks an explaination. If you need an excuse you can always say "I just don't do that" or "I was planning to use it" or "the airport will charge me a lot of money to change the security codes".

Sometimes, you may just have to avoid the situation altogether....

best,

bill

 

[T Bone]

The trouble is not with you, it is with those that wish to take advantage of you (of course they don't see it that way at all, and that is the real problem). Many people (some unknowingly) mistake kindness for weakness. I see this frequently. I hate when I have to "bare my teeth" so to speak, but I've been there with everything from employees to employers, from tennants to landlords, from co workers to lovers. Bottom line, you gotta draw the line and stick to it, or they will walk all over you. Quoting Patrick Swayze (can't believe I'm quoting this!) from Road House "Be nice. Untill it's time not to be nice". You gotta do it. I hate it when they make me go there. Lowers my opinion of them too....

 

[Richard]

T Bone, that 'kindness as a weakness' quote. Boy, aint it the truth. A few years ago I had a conversation with a ex-mil pilot from a country of great strategic interest to the USA. He was here to convert his license to a civilian FAA ATP. The subject of the conversation was the incessant stream of delays in his flight training program. This fellow was extremely polite and exhibited a great amount of kindness to everyone. Somewhere along the line I said people in this fast paced, sometimes ruthless culture may view his kindness as a weakness.

His reaction was as if I had scalded him. Figuratively, I had. So to make the point we decided to run a little experiment. For the next couple days whenever it seemed another delay was in the making he was to not accept it, he was to stand his ground. I said I would be nearby if he needed any help or coaching. Sure enough, the delays stopped and his training got back on schedule.

What was amazing was his background included having his own command over 180 men and he was used to issuing orders/getting results. Yet he was deemed to be a push over until he swallowed his kindness. It's unfortunate we are forced into that position by others.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I'd just tell them "Sure, but you have to bring your own parachute" and see if they're still interested.

And just to add to it, I once had a person tell me, "wearing someone else's parachute is like wearing someone else's underwear."

 

[gibbons]

And just to add to it, I once had a person tell me, "wearing someone else's parachute is like wearing someone else's underwear."

So do I need to wash my front seat parachute or just throw it away?

 

[Ken Ibold]

So do I need to wash my front seat parachute or just throw it away?

Just leave it in the plane when you give it to me and I'll take care of it!

 

[SCCutler]

Dave,

my piece of advice would be to say no, and mean it. You don't owe folks an explaination. ...

Dave, Bill has the essential point here. You have no obligation to explain why you choose not to do something someone else wants, and when you offer an explanation (no matter how compelling), it simply plants the seed in someone's mind that there is a certain set of criteria which would allow a "yes." If "no" is your answer, just say it, and move on to your next productive task. Anyone who asks such a question without accepting the completely reasonable possibility of a "no," is not much of a friend anyway.

You have reminded me of a lawyer trick: When taking a deposition, examining a witness, whatever, if the witness' answer is not enough for you, you just look at them expectantly, as if you know they could not possibly be finished. People instinctively want to please (yes, even when they are being deposed), so as long as you look at them with that needy, expectant look, they'll often keep trying to give you an answer which will satisfy. Your "no" does not need to satisfy, merely to be conveyed.

By the way, I promised Bill you'd take us all for a ride in your new Baron. That's OK, isn't it?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Dave,

All of the examples you cited were not a problem with you saying "no"--you DID say no, but these people were self-centered enough to not care.

So don't beat yourself up. Or change who you are. I've met you--you're a great, nice guy. Don't let some arrogant jerks change that.

(Man, I was working up the courage to ask for a ride in the new Baron, too, when I ran across this thread!).

=========================================================
Don't worry 'bout the Baron Troy. You're invited. You can't be rude once invited. You'll just have to wait until I get back from Mexico. Won't be able until after that.

Dave
Baron 322KS

 

[Tom-D]

Every time I barrow a tool I break it, and then I have to buy the person a new one, Every time I lend a tool some one wears it out, and I have to buy a new one, It took me a while but I learned not to do that anymore.

I had a person call me at 2200 one night and explan he needed my engine lift, Dummy got dressed, went to the hangar and got it out, assembled it and took it to their house. They said they would return it the next day.

4 days went by, I called them at 0300 and told them I needed my lift NOW. They got really grumpy, but I found my lift by my hangar door the next morning, but they have not spoken to me sence.

I believe that is a good thing.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Thanks folks!! Sometimes I really feel like the Lone Ranger when I turn someone down. It's frustrating when they feel I owe them a explanation when none should be required.


Don't get me wrong, there are some incredibly nice folks that have done great things for me; it's the others I have some trouble with--as do the other nice folks in the neighborhood.

And yes, it would give me great pleasure to get some of you up in the P-Baron. There's not much I enjoy more than taking someone up in my plane if they enjoy it and abide by a few simple courtesies!!


--I'm practicin. Not directed toward anyone here on the board.

Best,

Dave
Baron 322KS

 

[pete177]

Wow...that strikes me as some pretty oddball behavior. I never loaned anyone my motorcyle. People would ask, I'd say no and that would be that, they understood. Why dont you teach my son to fly in your airplane? Your kidding, right? Was the person asking that a pilot? Maybe he really didnt know what he was asking, kind of like teaching some one how to drive in your car, not really a big deal. I've had people offer to loan me their airplane but I couldnt do it. I offered mine to my flight instructor to pick up his wife at another airport but I'm sure if he had asked and I said no he would have understood. He didnt use it. I think most people understand when your not comfortable with something like that and respect that. If not, then they're pretty much sh*t heads and who needs'em anyway. I'd be p*ssed if someone took one of my tools and loaned it to someone else. I wouldn't be too worried about the cost but I'd be furious if I needed it and it wasn't there. As for the parking in front of your hanger, I'd have been on the phone to TSA and the local cops in a heartbeat. How do ya say no? Ya look'em right in the eye and say NO. That does two things, it lets'em know you wont do it and it lets'em know they shouldn't have asked. And, if you just have to be sensative about it there's always the "I dont appreciate you putting me in a situation were I have to feel bad about saying no."
Any man should know better than to ask to borrow your motorcylce or your airplane

 

[pete177]

ooooooh....I'm in wichita falls and havent been in the air since january. I'd be happy to drive to Dallas if you need any ballast in the right seat
(ok, here's your first chance to say NO and mean it)

And yes, it would give me great pleasure to get some of you up in the P-Baron. There's not much I enjoy more than taking someone up in my plane if they enjoy it and abide by a few simple courtesies!!


--I'm practicin. Not directed toward anyone here on the board.

Best,

Dave
Baron 322KS

 

[PoAdeleted5]

Just say no.

If that ain't good enough, then it is H3ll no.

If that ain't good enough, then maybe 3 rounds to the forehead will do the trick.

 

[John J]

Dave;

As others have said before; don't change your being nice

I have a simular situation. I like to be nice to all people. That has always abeen my nature. Yes there are many of the "Me First" crowd out there and I luckly can spot them quickly. I let folks come to the hanger and talk but what seems to work well is that I set a time to when I have to be on my way. Also I do not give out the key to the hanger. Interesting over the years I have lent out tools that I call the "second set" so that if one gets lost I have my "first set' that never gets lent out.

To this day I have friends that I have kept for many years and two of them came to the airport with me over 20 years ago and now are avid flyers. Even now with distance seperating us we still help each other out.

Sometimes it is hard to say no to people but what I have found that works is to just let folks know that I haved a limited amount of time to be available. Just about everyone understands and things work out fine. For the few that are the pain I just let it go.

Good luck with that nice 58P

John J

 

[Dave Siciliano]

ooooooh....I'm in wichita falls and havent been in the air since january. I'd be happy to drive to Dallas if you need any ballast in the right seat
(ok, here's your first chance to say NO and mean it)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pete:
We can certainly work something out when I get back from vacation.

Best,

Dave
Baron 322KS

 

[Henning]

Thanks folks!! Sometimes I really feel like the Lone Ranger when I turn someone down. It's frustrating when they feel I owe them a explanation when none should be required.


Don't get me wrong, there are some incredibly nice folks that have done great things for me; it's the others I have some trouble with--as do the other nice folks in the neighborhood.

And yes, it would give me great pleasure to get some of you up in the P-Baron. There's not much I enjoy more than taking someone up in my plane if they enjoy it and abide by a few simple courtesies!!


--I'm practicin. Not directed toward anyone here on the board.

Best,

Dave
Baron 322KS

My favorite line "Dude, that just Ain't gonna happen." This is accompanied with a look that relates in any language as "you have lost your freakin mind." It's easy enough once you get used to it. Just remember, out of the 6 billion people on earth, about 5 billion are idiots. Never get suckered by an idiot, and always let them know you think they are idiots. That way they think you are a prick, and don't ask idiot things of you.

 

[Frank Browne]

Sometimes I have to wonder just what in the world some folks are thinking. If I need a tool, I go buy the darned thing. I did loan out my motorcycle to a friend once. He was a mechanic who had helped me a great deal with tuneups, performance upgrades etc. He borrowed my Kawasaki for a weekend and he let me use his El Camino (yowee) for the same weekend. When he returned the bike he had tuned it up and washed and polished it, and filled it up for me. When I returned his El Camino, I had washed it and vacuumed out the interior, and filled it up. When you borrow something from someone that's just what you do. Anything less is very poor form.