Saratoga vs. Malibu vs. ??

[rpadula]

All the PA46 haters.

Ya, just like the BMW-haters who had one konk out on them in the 1970's and swore they'd never buy another one. Evar!

 

[Ted]

Ya, just like the BMW-haters who had one konk out on them in the 1970's and swore they'd never buy another one. Evar!

The difference is that a new BMW is not a 1970s BMW. A Malibu is still a Malibu.

 

[rpadula]

The difference is that a new BMW is not a 1970s BMW.

Exactly!

A Malibu is still a Malibu.

So, are there zero changes to aircraft designs over the years?

 

[wsuffa]

The real tales of woe tend to be avionics projects. Companies that go out of business after selling your old avionics for cash, credit card processors suing the aircraft owner for money stolen by the avionics guy, planes that are torn to pieces before the avionics installer disappears to Puerto Rico. Installations that simply dont work with Garmin blaming the installer and the installer blaming God.

Or your HSI remote compass craps out on an ODP in the mountains one day, and the instrument shop discovers that your original unit (by SN) has been "stolen" and a replaced by a dud that some hack used "Radio Shack" parts to "repair". The only place that could have removed it was the avionics shop that recently had done an installation....

Some obscure FAR requires that you also get overcharged for the job and at least the oil-pressure light is left OTS after the plane is returned.

Are you talking about my last few annuals?

 

[Kelvin]

A Malibu is still a Malibu.

Yep...

I own a Matrix and so far I am pretty impressed and happy with the plane...I'll know in a year if I have a dog or not..

Here is a snapshot of the engine page at 17K doing 195 true...engine looks like it is happy there...

 

[Ted]

So, are there zero changes to aircraft designs over the years?

In the case of the Malibu, the primary change was the introduction of the Lycoming variant (which didn't do much for reliability) and the avionics packages, plus interior.

So since we're talking about the engine reliability, then the answer is that there have been effectively zero changes.

 

[Ted]

Yep...

I own a Matrix and so far I am pretty impressed and happy with the plane...I'll know in a year if I have a dog or not..

Here is a snapshot of the engine page at 17K doing 195 true...engine looks like it is happy there...

Congrats! From what you'd said on Facebook, I thought you'd bought a Meridian.

The engine looks quite happy. I'd also note that you're operating at an exceptionally happy operating point. Keep it up!

Feel free to stop by Ohio if you want some engine-specific training. I have a lot of time running AE2As.

 

[Kelvin]

Congrats! From what you'd said on Facebook, I thought you'd bought a Meridian.

The engine looks quite happy. I'd also note that you're operating at an exceptionally happy operating point. Keep it up!

Feel free to stop by Ohio if you want some engine-specific training. I have a lot of time running AE2As.

Naaa, I was thinking about a JP but couldn't stand the weather so to speak...

This is where the trainer that did my initial recommends running it...I am exploring a cooling mod that Andrew got on his Matrix...he gave me glowing review about the CHT drop with the mod...

I just might take you up on the offer...I know I have an expensive piece of hardware and want to take as good of care of it as I can...

 

[Ted]

Naaa, I was thinking about a JP but couldn't stand the weather so to speak...

This is where the trainer that did my initial recommends running it...I am exploring a cooling mod that Andrew got on his Matrix...he gave me glowing review about the CHT drop with the mod...

I just might take you up on the offer...I know I have an expensive piece of hardware and want to take as good of care of it as I can...

More cooling is more better, most of the time.

Your trainer gave you good advice to start out with.

You know how to find me.

 

[wabower]

I think I have a Big Dog T-shirt if you need one.

Naaa, I was thinking about a JP but couldn't stand the weather so to speak...

This is where the trainer that did my initial recommends running it...I am exploring a cooling mod that Andrew got on his Matrix...he gave me glowing review about the CHT drop with the mod...

I just might take you up on the offer...I know I have an expensive piece of hardware and want to take as good of care of it as I can...

 

[Kelvin]

I think I have a Big Dog T-shirt if you need one.

After a few MX bills I might need an e-mail addy for Controller...

In the mean time...XXL.

 

[Sam D]

That was my understanding. Lycoming didn't want to certify a new engine (even though the sonic nozzles would be the only change), and Piper didn't want to pay for it. Remember, the Matrix was a low-budget plane. Certification won't allow simply plugging the nozzles because of turbo dynamics that can occur. I think it's silly, personally, but that's the FAA for you. End result is the engine is driving the pressurization with no benefit, but the plane does weigh less because it lacks the pressurization bits.

And yes, the turbine was a very nice upgrade.

You're not referring to the same plane are you (i.e. non-pressurized turbine)?

 

[spiderweb]

Yep...

I own a Matrix and so far I am pretty impressed and happy with the plane...I'll know in a year if I have a dog or not..

Here is a snapshot of the engine page at 17K doing 195 true...engine looks like it is happy there...

Looks great!

I always wondered about the Matrix. To me, it seems somewhat of a letdown to get in a big single with an airstair, and then have to put on oxygen. As a pilot, I'd prefer the improved performance, but I wonder what pax would have to say!

 

[Morne]

Exactly...it is a tradeoff. If you want to go fast you go Bo or Baron. If you want to haul alot of stuff: Toga, Seneca...or that Aztec you speak of.

Where do the Cessna twins fall relative to these for interior room?

 

[Ted]

You're not referring to the same plane are you (i.e. non-pressurized turbine)?

No, the upgrade was to a pressurized turboprop.

 

[Ted]

Looks great!

I always wondered about the Matrix. To me, it seems somewhat of a letdown to get in a big single with an airstair, and then have to put on oxygen. As a pilot, I'd prefer the improved performance, but I wonder what pax would have to say!

When the Matrix came out, it was universally given the thumbs down by press and other people who weren't potential customers for the reasons you cite. Fortunately for Piper, the press wasn't their intended market, and the sales numbers for the Matrix indicate it's been a hit. $300k purchase price savings, less strain on the engine, and none of that pesky pressuriation to maintain. A good plan, really.

Remember, you don't have to fly the plane at oxygen altitudes. Unless it's a long trip, you might not see much benefit anyway.

 

[Ted]

Where do the Cessna twins fall relative to these for interior room?

A 310 has more space than a Bo/Baron, less than an Aztec.

Any of the others, now you're getting into varying cabin class twins. The 337 is basically a 210 with a spare engine in the trunk.

 

[weilke]

Looks great!

I always wondered about the Matrix. To me, it seems somewhat of a letdown to get in a big single with an airstair, and then have to put on oxygen. As a pilot, I'd prefer the improved performance, but I wonder what pax would have to say!

Piper sold about 4000 Navajos and Chieftains with that concept. That may have given them the idea.

 

[wabower]

Cessna's 335, a non-pressurized version of the 340, didn't fare nearly as well.

Piper sold about 4000 Navajos and Chieftains with that concept. That may have given them the idea.

 

[N747JB]

When the Matrix came out, it was universally given the thumbs down by press and other people who weren't potential customers for the reasons you cite. Fortunately for Piper, the press wasn't their intended market, and the sales numbers for the Matrix indicate it's been a hit. $300k purchase price savings, less strain on the engine, and none of that pesky pressuriation to maintain. A good plan, really.

Remember, you don't have to fly the plane at oxygen altitudes. Unless it's a long trip, you might not see much benefit anyway.

I've got a dealer buddy that bought a Matrix about 2 years ago, he's not a pilot, but living in Iowa, he liked the higher useful load vs pressurization. He's been happy so far.

 

[wabower]

A friend who lives in Taos and maintains an oil-patch business near Abilene, TX is a good example of how the selection process can sort out. He had a turbo 35 Bo, but his family found the O2 system and limited cabin space to be a nuisance for the ~16k' jumps over the mountain. So he bought a 340 that provides turbo and pressure, although the trip times in both airplanes are roughly equal. The 340 is much more expensive to maintain, but trade-offs made it a logical choice. His next move will probably be a short-cabin King Air.

When the Matrix came out, it was universally given the thumbs down by press and other people who weren't potential customers for the reasons you cite. Fortunately for Piper, the press wasn't their intended market, and the sales numbers for the Matrix indicate it's been a hit. $300k purchase price savings, less strain on the engine, and none of that pesky pressuriation to maintain. A good plan, really.

Remember, you don't have to fly the plane at oxygen altitudes. Unless it's a long trip, you might not see much benefit anyway.

 

[Ted]

A friend who lives in Taos and maintains an oil-patch business near Abilene, TX is a good example of how the selection process can sort out. He had a turbo 35 Bo, but his family found the O2 system and limited cabin space to be a nuisance for the ~16k' jumps over the mountain. So he bought a 340 that provides turbo and pressure, although the trip times in both airplanes are roughly equal. The 340 is much more expensive to maintain, but trade-offs made it a logical choice. His next move will probably be a short-cabin King Air.

Of course, this also depends on what you can afford and re happy with.

One friend of mine loves his T310R, even though he could afford bigger. His family of 4 deals with the space and the O2, and since he's in the east, the O2 times are relatively few. His attitude is also more along the lines of saying this is the fammily plane, and most of his trips are solo anyway. I somewhat chuckle at the folks whose families "need" a 421 with 2 kids. We'll happily stick with the 310, but I have the benefit of an aviation wife and an insufficient wallet to afford a 421, plus living in the flatlands.

Of course, if I had the sufficient wallet, we'd get an MU-2 I suspect, but would definitely place it in the "nice/want" category rather than "need."

 

[wsuffa]

Of course, if I had the sufficient wallet, we'd get an MU-2 I suspect, but would definitely place it in the "nice/want" category rather than "need."

By properly defining the specs, you can make ANY "nice/want" into a "need"..

I'm just sayin'.....

 

[Ted]

By properly defining the specs, you can make ANY "nice/want" into a "need"..

I'm just sayin'.....

Very true, and we all place those lines in different locations.

 

[Morne]

A 310 has more space than a Bo/Baron, less than an Aztec.

Any of the others, now you're getting into varying cabin class twins. The 337 is basically a 210 with a spare engine in the trunk.

Can you compare the 310 or 337 to the Seneca?

 

[Ted]

Can you compare the 310 or 337 to the Seneca?

The 310's cabin is nice up front and tapers as it goes back, meaning row 2 isn't as good as pilot/co-pilot, and row 3 is considered cruel and unusual punnishment. The Seneca's club seating in back I think spreads out the pain more equally amongst passengers than the 310. Where the 310 is wonderful up front, the Seneca I find a bit more cramped. The 310 is faster, unless you fly the Seneca really high (turbos).

The 337/210 I haven't sat in in a long time, so someone who has more experience would give better info. Wayne always laments the sale of his 210, so it must not be too terrible of an airplane.

 

[N747JB]

A friend who lives in Taos and maintains an oil-patch business near Abilene, TX is a good example of how the selection process can sort out. He had a turbo 35 Bo, but his family found the O2 system and limited cabin space to be a nuisance for the ~16k' jumps over the mountain. So he bought a 340 that provides turbo and pressure, although the trip times in both airplanes are roughly equal. The 340 is much more expensive to maintain, but trade-offs made it a logical choice. His next move will probably be a short-cabin King Air.

I am very familiar with this move up justification scenario! The 340 is pressurized and "safer" than the Bo. Also the family likes the cabin class seating and the air stair entry! So, after crunching some mx numbers and seeing what it actually costs to fly the 340, a C-90 looks good, it's bigger, quieter, and with twin PT-6's it's MUCH safer than that noisy piston powered death trap! After a year or two in the C-90, he'll discover he can buy a Citation for less than the C-90 and have a JET!! They are really safe.

 

[Ted]

I like your thinking, John! Time for a Gulfstream. G-IIs are cheap.