Salt Water damaged aircraft.

robsingles

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Rob Singles
I have noticed that a lot of the airplanes damaged in the hurricanes were submerged in salt water and it looks like the insurance company is running from them. Now I understand the corrosion issue and what not, I was just curious is there a way to restore these aircraft? Really are a lot of neat airplanes that are going to be orphaned. I am not interested in buying any of these I was just wondering if these aircraft have a chance to fly again, and what process do they have to go through to do so.
 
I imagine there is an extensive cleaning process followed by an extensive restoration process followed in turn by an extensive recertification process.

Prepare to gut it down to the airframe and replace most everything. At that point you may even consider replacing most of the airframe.

Cost of resoration may equal or exceed price of new.

The real value would be to the person who is looking for a project. Even then, galvanic corrosion may have induced pitting which was not corrected during the restoration. Said pitting begats stress and fatigue.

The worst part is that aircraft skins are thin gauge aluminum and are not treated for marine environments. Rag & tube would fair much better.
 
I know some have done it but I wouldn't care to own one that had been under salt water even if it was restored. There are parts, even very basic airframe parts that I doubt you cannot get all the salt/saltwater out of with absolute assuredness. I would expect fayed surfaces, multistrand cables for ex. are impossible to completely clean.
Interior a mess, avionics and instruments trashed, insulation soaked, probably need to strip and repaint. Need to take that airplane to bare bones and steam clean(?) it.
Problem is, I bet someone out there will try to shortcut all that just to make a buck. We might see them crop up as 'Katrina planes'. Same as all those cars.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I know some have done it but I wouldn't care to own one that had been under salt water even if it was restored. There are parts, even very basic airframe parts that I doubt you cannot get all the salt/saltwater out of with absolute assuredness. I would expect fayed surfaces, multistrand cables for ex. are impossible to completely clean.
Interior a mess, avionics and instruments trashed, insulation soaked, probably need to strip and repaint. Need to take that airplane to bare bones and steam clean(?) it.
Problem is, I bet someone out there will try to shortcut all that just to make a buck. We might see them crop up as 'Katrina planes'. Same as all those cars.
There are non-toxic EPA-approved anti-corrosion cleaners and anti-corrosion rinses available but I bet they are expensive and messy. But how would one know if the fluids got into, as example, the space 'tween the wing skin and stiffeners? You gonna' drill out all the rivets to check? If it ever made it back into the air I think it would be limited to EXPERIMENTAL category.

Now that I think about it, now would be a good time to invent a device to accurately measure galvanic corrosion through aluminum. Lance, Ed G?????
 
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You could easily find that the only part worth salvaging is the identification plate. It would pretty much be a project for someone like Tom Downey who doesn't mind taking an airplane completely apart, inspecting every structural member, replacing all components that need it, and reassembling it, i.e., a real labor of love as opposed to a financially profitable operation. However, if you have the time to spend and the skill for the task, and the airplane is one that you would really like to see refurbished, it could keep you happily occupied and out of trouble for a long time.
 
Ron Levy said:
You could easily find that the only part worth salvaging is the identification plate. It would pretty much be a project for someone like Tom Downey who doesn't mind taking an airplane completely apart, inspecting every structural member, replacing all components that need it, and reassembling it, i.e., a real labor of love as opposed to a financially profitable operation. However, if you have the time to spend and the skill for the task, and the airplane is one that you would really like to see refurbished, it could keep you happily occupied and out of trouble for a long time.

I would not attempt to disassembly a spam can to that extent, unless it had historical value..there just isn't any profit margin.
 
FWIW I believe JAL salvaged and flew a DC8 that made a landing just a bit short of SFO. Late 60's early 70's?
Ron
 
L10MAN said:
FWIW I believe JAL salvaged and flew a DC8 that made a landing just a bit short of SFO. Late 60's early 70's?
Ron
Tom made an excellent point about being selective on which type to do the restoration. Perhaps there is economy of scale involved here with regards to the DC-8. Too, the airline would have had a major repair station at their disposal.
 
NC19143 said:
I would not attempt to disassembly a spam can to that extent, unless it had historical value..there just isn't any profit margin.

I heard of a Comanche that ditched in salt water, was recovered, restored, and flew again. 100% zinc chromate primer. Sorry, I have no other details.
 
Those restored airplanes have to have a reduced lifespan. There must be salt in those thousands of seams. You would have to de-rivet every last skin, clean and reassemble. Just watch the seams on those in 5-10? years. A fayed surface is where something can get it,...but can't ever get out!
 
robsingles said:
I have noticed that a lot of the airplanes damaged in the hurricanes were submerged in salt water and it looks like the insurance company is running from them. Now I understand the corrosion issue and what not, I was just curious is there a way to restore these aircraft? Really are a lot of neat airplanes that are going to be orphaned. I am not interested in buying any of these I was just wondering if these aircraft have a chance to fly again, and what process do they have to go through to do so.

Strip it down, open it up and spray/ soak everything with Salt-X. http://www.salt-x.com/ This stuff is great. I've been using it on dive equipment, fishing gear, aluminum on boats and semi annual rinses on planes for years, good sh**. Let it soak in and give a healthy flush with fresh water. Repeat a couple of times, then use a good corrosion blocker like ACR. Replace upholst. and avionics as required. Trick is to work quick. Put in a low ball bid and tell them the offer is good for 24 hrs. Pickle the engine by filling the crankcase and jugs with diesel mixed with a bottle of HEAT ASAP until someone has time to open it up.
 
Henning said:
Strip it down, open it up and spray/ soak everything with Salt-X. http://www.salt-x.com/ This stuff is great. I've been using it on dive equipment, fishing gear, aluminum on boats and semi annual rinses on planes for years, good sh**. Let it soak in and give a healthy flush with fresh water. Repeat a couple of times, then use a good corrosion blocker like ACR. Replace upholst. and avionics as required. Trick is to work quick. Put in a low ball bid and tell them the offer is good for 24 hrs. Pickle the engine by filling the crankcase and jugs with diesel mixed with a bottle of HEAT ASAP until someone has time to open it up.
Henning, I think you are the original CAN DO guy. You make it sound so easy. I bet you can build a radio set out of a coconut.
 
Richard said:
Henning, I think you are the original CAN DO guy. You make it sound so easy.

It's how I make my living, people call and ask, "Can you do...?" my answer is "If you can pay my rate, I can get anything done." It's mostly a matter of attitude and obstinance.

NC19143 said:
I would not attempt to disassembly a spam can to that extent, unless it had historical value..there just isn't any profit margin.

Not Necessarilly true, it just depends on how bad the project is, what's salvageable, and how much you can get it for. If you get it cheap enough, you'll make a profit off the engine core, scrap aluminum and what ever parts you can salvage if you determine the rebuild is too extensive. I've pulled a couple planes out that Crashed into salt water, and there was still a margin to be made.
 
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I have had a lot of experience with saltwater and aircraft living and working in the San Francisco Bay Area. Bottom line is there is no way you can get all the salt out between the lap seams unless you take it apart. Drilling out all the rivets causes more damage than the salt water, oversized holes, and etc.

Once the engine is in salt water, it’s gone unless you can get it out in a matter or hours and wash it down with clean water, but damage has already set in.

I agree with Tom, unless it is a full restoration the aircraft makes a better beer can. The problem is going to be down the road some of these aircraft or parts will be installed on other aircraft and fail. In the Bay Area with the high moisture and salt, we saw lots of wing spar corrosion on the rear spars of Cessna’s not good, many had to be scrapped.

If the insurance companies are smart, they will not sale off the aircraft or parts but destroy them and keep everyone safe.

Just one man's opinion.
 
Stache, good to see you back.

Agreed!

There was a Mooney on eBay recently which had been completely submerged, inuance paid off and aircraft was sold in salvage auction... Disassembled.

It was put back together and was being sold as "restored," but no mention made of its swim. Bad deal.
 
I have had a lot of experience with saltwater and aircraft living and working in the San Francisco Bay Area. Bottom line is there is no way you can get all the salt out between the lap seams unless you take it apart. Drilling out all the rivets causes more damage than the salt water, oversized holes, and etc.

Once the engine is in salt water, it’s gone unless you can get it out in a matter or hours and wash it down with clean water, but damage has already set in.

I agree with Tom, unless it is a full restoration the aircraft makes a better beer can. The problem is going to be down the road some of these aircraft or parts will be installed on other aircraft and fail. In the Bay Area with the high moisture and salt, we saw lots of wing spar corrosion on the rear spars of Cessna’s not good, many had to be scrapped.

If the insurance companies are smart, they will not sale off the aircraft or parts but destroy them and keep everyone safe.

Just one man's opinion.

Totally agree, I've seen 1 aircraft salvaged from water that actually made sense, a republic Sea Bee, simply because it sank over night, and wasn't bent going into the water, the wing skins are very expensive and worth the time to take them apart and clean. ( they are rare as chicken lips)

and other aluminum skinned aircraft simply isn't worth the troubles, because in today's market you can buy better aircraft than you can build.

To actually recover a salt water soaked aircraft made from aluminum you would be required to completely disassemble the entire aircraft, bead blast the aluminum and reprime and reassemble the whole thing, this would require a fuselage fixture ($10,000) and a wing fixture ($15,000) all new wiring, all new instruments, all new radios, new engine, prop, new interior, and about 2 years labor for 3 people.

do the math. $$$$$$

The easiest aircraft to do would be a rag and tube type, then you'd have to be very selective about how many complex systems you must deal with.

IMHO if they are in the salt, they should go to the crusher.

I'll retract the 1 aircraft recovered from salt that made sense, the Boeing that ran out of gas short of BFI, and went into the salt was recovered, but now sets in the Smithsonian. There are probably others.
 
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Strip it down, open it up and spray/ soak everything with Salt-X. http://www.salt-x.com/ This stuff is great. I've been using it on dive equipment, fishing gear, aluminum on boats and semi annual rinses on planes for years, good sh**. Let it soak in and give a healthy flush with fresh water.
Isn't that stuff is just diluted acetic acid? I'm pretty sure the aluminum on boats is different from the alloys used in aircraft.

Totally agree, I've seen 1 aircraft salvaged from water that actually made sense, a republic Sea Bee, simply because it sank over night, and wasn't bent going into the water, the wing skins are very expensive and worth the time to take them apart and clean. ( they are rare as chicken lips)

and other aluminum skinned aircraft simply isn't worth the troubles, because in today's market you can buy better aircraft than you can build.

To actually recover a salt water soaked aircraft made from aluminum you would be required to completely disassemble the entire aircraft, bead blast the aluminum and reprime and reassemble the whole thing, this would require a fuselage fixture ($10,000) and a wing fixture ($15,000) all new wiring, all new instruments, all new radios, new engine, prop, new interior, and about 2 years labor for 3 people.

do the math. $$$$$$

The easiest aircraft to do would be a rag and tube type, then you'd have to be very selective about how many complex systems you must deal with.

IMHO if they are in the salt, they should go to the crusher.

I'll retract the 1 aircraft recovered from salt that made sense, the Boeing that ran out of gas short of BFI, and went into the salt was recovered, but now sets in the Smithsonian. There are probably others.
Tom, I agree, much as I hate to see a plane "die". The Boeing you mentioned was one of those special cases you alluded to in one of your earlier posts.
 
Tom, I agree, much as I hate to see a plane "die". The Boeing you mentioned was one of those special cases you alluded to in one of your earlier posts.

I saw that aircraft in fall of 2010, and almost every rivet on the fuselage was starting to show corrosion.

I'd hate to inspect the engines interiors.

That was the stupidest accident I ever heard of, the pilots decided to go to BFI for fuel (when they got a low fuel warning at PAE) because the fuel was 25 cents cheaper at BFI…….. they were not paying for it any way. really really dumb.
 

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To actually recover a salt water soaked aircraft made from aluminum you would be required to completely disassemble the entire aircraft, bead blast the aluminum and reprime and reassemble the whole thing, this would require a fuselage fixture ($10,000) and a wing fixture ($15,000) all new wiring, all new instruments, all new radios, new engine, prop, new interior, and about 2 years labor for 3 people.

Not disagreeing with conclusion, just curious about bead blasting? When refurbishing steel components which had been exposed to seawater we used high pressure fresh water rinses. The concept was to flush the chloride ions out of the steel crystal structure.

After the fresh water wash the component would be dried, sand blasted, and primed.

What is different about aluminum that it would be bead blasted?
 
Not disagreeing with conclusion, just curious about bead blasting? When refurbishing steel components which had been exposed to seawater we used high pressure fresh water rinses. The concept was to flush the chloride ions out of the steel crystal structure.

After the fresh water wash the component would be dried, sand blasted, and primed.

What is different about aluminum that it would be bead blasted?

The advantage of fine media is it will remove less of the base structure of the metal, which is al-claded, A better media is a soda blaster to clean the aluminum. and yes, we do a good wash, etch, and re-aladine after the cleaning process. that is what causes the expense, TIME and equipment.

People such as myself do not take these jobs because we don't have that type of equipment. I would be required to farm out all the special tasks to companies that do have the equipment.

A project like a 182/210 salt water recovery/restoration would tie up my facilities for 3-5 years, I wouldn't go there unless you want me to take it as a time and materials contract and that would mean Friday is payday each and every week until it is finished. you'd be into a 182 for about $200k.
 
It depends, saw some Katrina surge planes that were high enough that the water only made it to the bellys. As the damage wouldn't be too far beyond that of a gear up landing IF the price was right it could be worth it.

But for full emersion there needs to be some special value to the plane for it to be worth fixing.
 
It depends, saw some Katrina surge planes that were high enough that the water only made it to the bellys. As the damage wouldn't be too far beyond that of a gear up landing IF the price was right it could be worth it.

But for full emersion there needs to be some special value to the plane for it to be worth fixing.

There was an EZ type floating around when puget sound had all the flooding, they flew it the next day.. water never got inside the hull. the engine was under water but it got flushed and ran great. the wooden prop got changed, as was the fuel.
 
There are non-toxic EPA-approved anti-corrosion cleaners and anti-corrosion rinses available but I bet they are expensive and messy. But how would one know if the fluids got into, as example, the space 'tween the wing skin and stiffeners? You gonna' drill out all the rivets to check? If it ever made it back into the air I think it would be limited to EXPERIMENTAL category.

Now that I think about it, now would be a good time to invent a device to accurately measure galvanic corrosion through aluminum. Lance, Ed G?????

My family owns a part of a company with patents and a working prototype of a scanner that uses radiation backscatter to do just that. Unfortunately we haven't done much with it. Scanner has been sitting unused for over a year.
 
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