Safety and the group dynamic

[flyingcheesehead]

After the Seneca/Multiengine threads, in talking with various people, I have a growing concern about the way we perceive ourselves as safer pilots on this board. With that in mind, I'm pulling this portion into a new thread. Please read this in its entirety and especially the large, bold portion of the last quote. Hopefully we can re-evaluate ourselves and truly become safer.

Your CFI may be a great equipment operator but has a hole in his judgement. And if he wants to debate it, let him post here. He'll get demolished.

Yes, he will, just as I have. I'm pretty sure he's read the thread in question now, based on something he said in an e-mail to me. I'm also quite sure that the ensuing argument would be completely, utterly, hopelessly pointless.

No, I'm afraid it is the MOST important question.

It is the least important question in this instance because we've been over it and beat the dead horse enough. The whole reason for the additional post is that I had many questions about the airplane that didn't get answered because the thread was overwhelmed by the "you're stupid" posts.

Because he has the potential to remain your mentor and you will acquire his "it's OK" attitude. It's NOT OKAY when you die. Really.

The descriptions I've read from most people are about as close to the opposite of how he is that you* can get. He does NOT have an "it's OK" attitude. I don't know how y'all can be so judgmental without knowing the guy, basing your* entire opinion on a n00b's description of one incident which you* don't have all the details of and weren't there for.

* All the you's are all a collective "you" and not directed at Dr. B.

You let your trust in the legal PIC and the complexity of the machine shut down your judgement.

I've been thinking about darn near nothing else since. I haven't flown since. I've re-evaluated it over and over again. We had the plane reserved for another day and a half, Joe was reserved for another day and a half, we had a ride and a room at McGuire's Resort and an excellent A&P waiting for us back at CAD. We had set everything up specifically to avoid get-there-itis and we made a series of decisions without any pressure to continue.

I've had several additional conversations with my CFI about the issue. I've learned a lot about the airplane from him, from folks here, other people, and other research. Only one thing (Henning's ice-in-the-pill post) made me doubt things, and I've since found that was not the problem and the symptoms did not indicate it.

Unfortunately, while my intention was to learn about the airplane, I instead learned an awful lot about this board and online communities in general. Having been on the Internet since 1993 and on various other online communities back into the 80's, I thought I had a handle on how people act online. However, it seems that we in the aviation community are just a bit worse than the norm.

We post about stupid pilot tricks all the time here, and we ridicule pilots about their idiotic mistakes all the time. It didn't occur to me how very unhealthy of an attitude that is to have until I got an e-mail from a pilot friend yesterday about this very same issue.

Read the following and think about how we treat many accidents on this board:

You certainly want to analyze flights with bad outcomes. And you can't ignore the decision-making process, because we all know that the commonest, most dangerous equipment failure in aircraft involves the nut holding the yoke. But if what you're taking away is "Hah, that would never happen to me", you are turning the process on its head and using information meant to UNDERMINE the hazardous invulnerability attitude to BOLSTER it instead.

What I've really learned is that things are different when it's your own butt in the seat. With everything I have learned from many sources since, if I knew everything then that I do now, I would still have made the trip. Sure, you can try to be nice to me and say it was my CFI's fault because he was the PIC. But, I was the one who decided to stay in the seat, who decided to get in that seat in the first place with a CFI who I trust not because he's got letters after his name, but because he has earned my trust time and time again. Had I felt the smallest shred of doubt about the successful outcome of the flight, especially the overwater portion, I'd have turned the plane around. It was, after all, MY hands on the controls.

Am I done thinking about this particular issue? Far from it. My next stop will be in the office of the flight school manager, who is a DPE and has more hours than anyone here, and probably more than most of us combined. This learning opportunity is certainly far from over, but I am finished with the particular incident here - I will be listening to those who have experience with the airplane and actually know the people involved.

As much as I respect many folks here, the fact that y'all can be so absolutely sure of how awful my CFI must be and exactly what decision you'd have made in the same situation after hearing a not-very-well-written account of the incident from a total newbie in the airplane leads me to believe that every one of us needs to take a long hard look at the large bold statement in the quoted passage above and reflect upon it for a while.

 

[ScottM]

Last month I was at annual CRM training. Part of that class we look at other people's stupid mistakes and just like here, we feel really confident that we would never be so dumb. But the class also makes us look at out own action and analyze somethings that could have lead to accidents. That is a real eye opener. Everyone had something to share. In other words we may be safe pilots but we can always be safer. Anyone thinking they have all the answers and can never make mistakes is only fooling themselves.

I am not sure what was happening in the other thread, I may have to go read it. But be assured that we all make some mistakes from time to time. The trick is to learn from those and not let it happen again.

 

[jesse]

Kent, You'll notice I stayed out of those threads completely which is rare for an aviation thread. I was talking to Tony about this the night I was in Ames and mentioned that it's a hell of a lot easier to say things on the internet when you have all the time in the world to think about it versus in the actual airplane. I like to think that I've always made the right choice in the airplane but I promise you if I posted some of my bad decisions on this forum I would be ripped into little pieces. I doubt I'm the only one.

There are lots of things I've observed pilots on this forum DO but if you read their posts they make it sound like they'd never do something like that or they would never admit to it. I don't think some people really even pay attention to what they do versus what they tell others to do.

A wise pilot recently said to me:

My partner and I spent a day talking about "understanding". You know how people will hear your ice story and they will say "yeah, I understand..."? They don't, and can't understand. Understanding takes a certain perspective, and until you experience things from that perspective, you don't understand.

We were taking about being 30 ft AGL, with the nose down coming over a powerline, and feeling the stall coming on. You have to lower the nose, push the stick forward, even though the nose is already pointed down. You tell another pilot that, and he'd say "oh sure, I understand that". But he doesn't. Until he's been there and survived, he doesn't know what he'd do. Lot's of dead pilots have tried to pull the nose up. Most of those being privates in the pattern.

How do you think you'd feel if ______________ happened? You just can't know until it does. Really know.

I post some of my things on this forum fully expecting to be ripped apart. I know that the level of decesion making that'll take place across the country with a bunch of guys safely in their computer chairs is completely different. But it's still valid input I try to remember for the future. I suspect that a lot of people on this forum would have crossed the lake if they were in the airplane. I would have. Of course me even saying that doesn't mean much versus what I would actually do in the airplane.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I promise you if I posted some of my bad decisions on this forum I would be ripped into little pieces. I doubt I'm the only one.

And that's the unfortunate thing. We are SO quick to judge here that people are afraid to post experiences which we could all learn from. Maybe the anon feature in Lessons Learned needs to be easier to use.

There are lots of things I've observed pilots on this forum DO but if you read their posts they make it sound like they'd never do something like that or they would never admit to it.

I have seen the same thing, from some of the most unlikely sources.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Jesse, your post brings up some other very important comments...

We did a Pilotcast with Rick Durden talking about precautionary landings and how many people who are in emergency situations crash on the way to the airport 10nm away while flying over lots of perfectly good fields the whole way. I mentioned that I knew of a pilot who put his 172 down in a field due to worsening weather and was "rewarded" with a 709 ride. What Rick said next was simple yet profound:

"You have to be alive to get in trouble."

He went on to say that we all know what it's like to get in trouble, and we know we don't like it, but we don't know what it's like to get dead.


Another human problem is ego. We all think we're super-pilots. The attitude I see a lot of here is "It can't happen to me." I've felt that way in the past, and luckily I now know I'm wrong.

I used to be Mr. Super Truck Driver when I was a volunteer. I had to, and did, squeeze that beast into some crazy small places. About three days after I started my first "real" driving job where we had 53-foot trailers, I knocked someone's headlight out trying to back into a spot at a truck stop after driving way too far.

I thought it couldn't happen to me, but it did. Now, for the last 2 1/2 years, I've been training drivers. I tell them exactly what factors will lead to them having accidents. Over and over, I preach how not wanting to get into an accident and actually achieving that safety record are VERY different things. I tell them to be sure they've got their shoes and coat on before they even take an exit to go to a truck stop, so that they have absolutely no excuse to not get and out and look frequently. I tell them everything I've been talking about in this message.

Like Jesse says, they don't *understand*. My trainees don't have an accident rate any better than anyone else's.

I'm glad I've been exposed to the dangerous side of the human ego in such a low-risk way. I'm afraid that if more folks here don't internalize a different philosophy, realizing that "It CAN happen to me, and I need to take more action to prevent it," that Vic and John will not be our only friends to meet their end in an aircraft.

 

[EdFred]

Kent -

The only thing I have to say about the whole right wrong good decision bad decision on the whole thing is this:

You were trusting a plane that isn't yours.

 

[jesse]

You were trusting a plane that isn't yours.

The unfortunate thing for many of us is that we have to do that all too often. Every flight really. As much as we like to convince ourselves we are super pilots and no failure can hurt us. That is just not the case.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You were trusting a plane that isn't yours.

As I do every time I fly. Otherwise, I'd never fly.

While I certainly have a better idea of what's going on with N271G because only a few people fly it and I'm flying it all the time... It still ain't mine.

I trust the FBO's planes... While three of 'em have crashed since I rented there, it was all pilot error. I trust the club's planes... I have a hand in that. I pay the bills, so I know what's going on.

I've trusted other FBO's. I've trusted lots of other people. I definitely trust Chip's planes and Bruce's plane...

If I had myself a brand-new Diamond Star, and had to choose between that and a 12,000 hour Seneca going across the lake, I'd still take the Seneca.

So what's your point anyway?

 

[EdFred]

So what's your point anyway?

That I would be more conservative with a plane that other people regularly fly. I don't know how the engines are treated, if there's a squawk that routinely happens, etc. I'm not saying to anyone and everyone who rents that you need to buy your own plane, but that if there's an issue maybe it needs to be taken with more consideration than if it were your own plane, that's all.

 

[ApacheBob]

It is important to take events into perspective. Once when I was getting ready to take off, a Piper Cherokee engine glunked. It sounded like some carb ice or something going through the engine.
I taxied back, let the engine run for a while, then I took off.
I did not run screaming to the nearest FBO looking for a mechanic to do a tear down.
The Cherokee did not stutter after that for the rest of the flight.
You make the best decisions that you can when you can.
Back seat drivers and second-guessers bug me.
ApacheBob

 

[Everskyward]

What I've really learned is that things are different when it's your own butt in the seat.

Yeah it is, because you are there and are going through the experience in a very different way than someone who is sitting at their computer reading about it. It's easy to make decisions from the comfort of your desk.

I'm also someone who doesn't like to second-guess other people very much. Of course there are the Darwin Award candidates who crash and kill themselves but most pilots are not like that. Sometimes when I read about accidents that have happened to other people I think that I have done the same thing or something equally as stupid in the past but have been lucky enough survive without incident.

Last night in chat you asked if any of us had read this. I had, but not very thoroughly so I didn't have much to say. Since I've been reading and posting on internet boards, which is probably about 5 years, I have become intrigued by the interactions which go on. I think the format lends itself to nitpicking (OK, a better descriptions might be analyzing, more analyzing, and analyzing again) every issue in ways that I've never heard in real life. Also there is the tendency of some people to lecture and criticize others in what happens to be a fairly public way. Sometimes I think even the most well-intentioned advice when delivered the wrong way will provoke a "screw you" reaction in the one being addressed.

 

[gismo]

Kent, it the posts I made on the thread in question I was only trying to explain what I thought I would have done in the situation you described, not to chastise you for doing something different from that. Let me also add that I can't even say for sure that I wouldn't have done exactly what you did, just that sitting on the ground in front of a computer with my limited understanding of the exact situation you faced, I believe I wouldn't have crossed the lake at an altitude that left me unable to glide to shore for a significant period of time.

Then there's the reality that the chances of you losing both engines over the lake might have been less than the chances of some other equally disasterous failure with either event being a pretty remote possibility. On the opposite side of that coin is the near fact that had you gone into the lake this time of year, you wouldn't be around anymore.

But that's your call, not mine and not anyone else's on this board.

BTW, what questions from your OP didn't get answered?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Kent, it the posts I made on the thread in question I was only trying to explain what I thought I would have done in the situation you described, not to chastise you for doing something different from that.

Lance,

I certainly wasn't aiming this at you... In fact, I really wasn't aiming it at anyone in particular. I just came to the realization after reading my friend's e-mail that we're all so darn sure we're safe and wouldn't pull one of these stupid pilot tricks... But in reality, that attitude makes us LESS safe. I'm just hoping we can all see that before we lose any more friends.

BTW, what questions from your OP didn't get answered?

I posted a newer message in the Seneca thread about that, I think you responded to it already.