Sad result of sloppy procedure.

[Threefingeredjack]

This past Memorial Day was spent with some old comrades from Air Sta. Kodiak. As will happen with pilots the talk was mostly lies and old "geez the weather was so bad" kind of stuff. A couple of them who had been at Kodiak before me got to talking about a case they were on in 1973, looking for a missing DC-8. I have a morbid fascination with reading reports, in hopes of detecting faults of mine that might someday lead me down the same path. I finally got around to reading this today. sad.

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR74-06.pdf

 

[denverpilot]

Just poking Wikipedia and saw this...

"Cold Bay holds the record for most overcast town in America".

88 residents, and a couple of WWII 10,000' runways.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Yeah, the Aleutians have a lovely summer however......one year it came on a Saturday and everyone got to enjoy it. I have seen it go from zero zero to CAVU and back in about an hour. We were on the ramp once at CB for a Medivac and the wind was pushing us slowly sideways across the ice as we taxiied out. One of the only times I had to crab while on the ground!!!!

 

[L.Adamson]

This past Memorial Day was spent with some old comrades from Air Sta. Kodiak. As will happen with pilots the talk was mostly lies and old "geez the weather was so bad" kind of stuff. A couple of them who had been at Kodiak before me got to talking about a case they were on in 1973, looking for a missing DC-8. I have a morbid fascination with reading reports, in hopes of detecting faults of mine that might someday lead me down the same path. I finally got around to reading this today. sad.

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR74-06.pdf

I do too. It started when a different DC-8 (United Airlines) cargo aircraft, crashed into the mountain above my house in 1977. It's also the reason I've become a terrain data base GPS "fanatic". They work! I've spent many years comparing the GPS screen to actual CFIT crash sites. It's never let me down.

There are those who say...............if they had just followed the correct proceedures. Yes, that's true. But then, someone screws up, even if it's not intended. With today's technology, there is no reason to remain
on a course that leads eventually to disaster.

L.Adamson

 

[comanchepilot]

SoCal approach needed me on a vector today on my way to CRQ. The vector was a heading of 100 about 3 SE of TANNR. Terrain gets pretty interesting out there. They also requested a descent to 6000. I prefer doing this in the clouds - I can't see the mountains in front of me!

It looked a little sketchy in terms of clearance but I flipped through the 496 to the terrain page and opened the scan to 12nm and there was only terrain between 100 and 1000 10nm out in front. It looked like a lot closer than that - but I would easily clear the terrain - then I got a vector.

I once spent 87 minutes at Cold Bay refueling on a TransPac ferry. I was glad it was winter - at least the ceiling was higher than it is in spring, summer and fall. It was so cold the ice actually had pretty good traction. . . .

 

[Henning]

I do too. It started when a different DC-8 (United Airlines) cargo aircraft, crashed into the mountain above my house in 1977. It's also the reason I've become a terrain data base GPS "fanatic". They work! I've spent many years comparing the GPS screen to actual CFIT crash sites. It's never let me down.

There are those who say...............if they had just followed the correct proceedures. Yes, that's true. But then, someone screws up, even if it's not intended. With today's technology, there is no reason to remain
on a course that leads eventually to disaster.

L.Adamson

SVT is a wonderful thing.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

It's also the reason I've become a terrain data base GPS "fanatic". They work! L.Adamson

Indeed they do. I have a Garmin 396 portable as a back up to the 430W in the stack. I absolutely love the terrain warning feature, and keep that page open on the 396 when in IMC and flying the 430.

 

[wsuffa]

Take a look sometime at the IFR ODP for KLUA....

 

[aterpster]

I do too. It started when a different DC-8 (United Airlines) cargo aircraft, crashed into the mountain above my house in 1977. It's also the reason I've become a terrain data base GPS "fanatic". They work! I've spent many years comparing the GPS screen to actual CFIT crash sites. It's never let me down.

There are those who say...............if they had just followed the correct proceedures. Yes, that's true. But then, someone screws up, even if it's not intended. With today's technology, there is no reason to remain
on a course that leads eventually to disaster.

L.Adamson

Was that the UAL cargo plane that entered the wrong holding pattern at Ogden, Utah?

Since you like to reconstruct CFIT crashes, have you tried TWA 514 on approach to KIAD on December 1, 1974? I worked on that accident.

 

[aterpster]

This past Memorial Day was spent with some old comrades from Air Sta. Kodiak. As will happen with pilots the talk was mostly lies and old "geez the weather was so bad" kind of stuff. A couple of them who had been at Kodiak before me got to talking about a case they were on in 1973, looking for a missing DC-8. I have a morbid fascination with reading reports, in hopes of detecting faults of mine that might someday lead me down the same path. I finally got around to reading this today. sad.

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR74-06.pdf

Approach chart looks a lot different today:

 

[wsuffa]

Since you like to reconstruct CFIT crashes, have you tried TWA 514 on approach to KIAD on December 1, 1974? I worked on that accident.

That one was another one where folks learned some lessons about "procedure", and has IMHO contributed to the levels of safety we have today.

FWIW, there are still monuments at the crash site, despite it's proximity to the cold-war era government installation at Mt. Weather.

 

[L.Adamson]

Was that the UAL cargo plane that entered the wrong holding pattern at Ogden, Utah?

Crash site is between Salt Lake City & Ogden Utah. Just east of Kaysville.

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR78-08.pdf

 

[aterpster]

Crash site is between Salt Lake City & Ogden Utah. Just east of Kaysville.

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR78-08.pdf

Right. Their fatal error was leaving ATC frequency to talk with the company. Normally, at our company at least in those days, perhaps the captain and F/E would go to company freq, but the F/O would remain with ATC.

The hold instructions were lousy too, but the controller could have saved it.

About the same timeframe we were arriving at LAX from the east. There was a big rain storm getting bigger so LAX was switching to east landings. We were in the Ontario area at 8,000 when the center cleared us to hold at POM, right turns, on the 076 radial. I knew the area well and knew there couldn't be a holding pattern at 8,000 on the north side of POM. (There isn't to this day.) The frequency was overloaded. So, we held but I put the flaps out and slowed to 150. Next day I plotted it out and it showed we could have hit an 8,800' ridge had we held at max holding speed, coupled with the strong south winds aloft with the stomr.

I took my topo to the regional ATC division manager, who I knew and worked with. They looked it over then one of the specialists said, "There is no established pattern there and ad hoc holding doesn't fit either." The division manager veins starting getting bigger and he barked out, "I want to hear those tapes."

They never got back to me.

 

[aterpster]

SoCal approach needed me on a vector today on my way to CRQ. The vector was a heading of 100 about 3 SE of TANNR. Terrain gets pretty interesting out there. They also requested a descent to 6000. I prefer doing this in the clouds - I can't see the mountains in front of me!

Attached is an approximation of your radar vector. They had 6 miles on a heading of 100 from 3 SE of TANNR before they violated MVA. But, as you can see, on that heading you could go for a long time before hitting anything, if at all.

But, the pilot has no way of knowing that. Vectors toward higher terrain have gotten very ugly a few times over the years.

There was a brief time, I believe in the 70s, where ATC was required to give a lost comm procedure if they vectored you toward a MVA higher than your assigned altitude. That didn't last very long because they just didn't do it; at least not in busy airspace.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Yeah, the Aleutians have a lovely summer however......one year it came on a Saturday and everyone got to enjoy it. I have seen it go from zero zero to CAVU and back in about an hour. We were on the ramp once at CB for a Medivac and the wind was pushing us slowly sideways across the ice as we taxiied out. One of the only times I had to crab while on the ground!!!!

I've been to Dutch Harbor once on a container ship. Fortunately it was sumer. Place was nice, very green. Reminded me of Ireland without trees.

I can't imagine trying to fly in there....when we arrived from Oakland, we had the most recent newspapers - about 5 days old IIRC. They said they hadn't been able to get a plane in for a week due to ceiling.

 

[comanchepilot]

Take a look sometime at the IFR ODP for KLUA....

so climb to 2000 over the airport and then to 5000 on the 215 radial. . . . nt seeing a problem there - the airport is at 900' and the mins are 1000' - so you are basically there already. The 215 must take you down the airway there in the valley - there is terrain east and west of the airport to 4000 . . .

or if you can provide your own terrain avoidance you can follow your clearance.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I've been to Dutch Harbor once on a container ship. Fortunately it was sumer. Place was nice, very green. Reminded me of Ireland without trees.

I can't imagine trying to fly in there....when we arrived from Oakland, we had the most recent newspapers - about 5 days old IIRC. They said they hadn't been able to get a plane in for a week due to ceiling.

Actually, (aside from the rain and fog) it is only kinda goofy when you had a strong wind from a Northern quadrant. There is a steep hill adjacent to the field on the north, a couple thousand feet high, and it generates a fierce rotor which can sit right above the runway. I have been told Dutch records somewhere around 75 days per year with hurricane force or better winds .