BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Is anyone familiar with these performance charts in this PDF attachment? I understand it more or less, but I would like a blow by blow instruction on how to use it if possible, especially the landing performance chart.
Runway Analysis Chart
- Thread starter BlackManINC
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dtuuri
Final Approach
It's been a long time since I was a B-727 flight engineer, but maybe I can help. The climb limits mentioned in the landing charts are no doubt for the all engines operating balked landing climb case. The approach limits are for the one engine inoperative climb at various flap settings. Be more specific if you want more.
dtuuri
dtuuri
Gucci Pilot
Pattern Altitude
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Gucci Pilot
Just looking at it I think I know what it is. We use a similar chart in the KC-10. So it is specific to the airport. Across the top you have the runway you are using. Then you go down the sheet to the temperature at the airport. It will give you your max climb gradient, and the EPR POD I assume is the takeoff power setting to use. Then it gives you the max weight you can be to take-off and meet the climb gradient and what your V1 speed is. At the very bottom it gives your acceleration height. That's where you will select climb power and start cleaning up the airplane. That is all just going off my guess of what it is because it looked extremely similar to a chart we use but I could be wrong. In between the acceleration height and the weight/V1 I believe is how you add/subract weight and speeds for different things such as anti-ice on, anti-skid inop, etc.
Busflyer
Line Up and Wait
Acceleration height, at least at our airline, is the altitude for level off in the event you lose an engine. They are usually runway specific due to obstacles in the later climb segments. You'll notice they are different for different runways.
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Its the landing performance chart in particular I'm having a problem understanding.
1. I don't quite understand the section that gives corrections that are to be made to the weight if the planes anti ice is on. I'm assuming it means subtract the necessary pounds from the max landing weight in the section titled
"SUB LB/KT" if you're wing and engine anti ice is on, right?
2. In the section that gives you the runway number and slope, which numbers are for headwind? Is it the numbers with the dash or without the dash?
3. What does the term "CRT TW"? Does it mean subtract from the max weight if I have a tailwind?
4. Can you explain the top that states 'Anti-Skid operational'?
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Busflyer
Line Up and Wait
It's been a while but here's what I remember. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. (Usually not a problem around here but I'm married so I can take it)
1. Landing weight is the lesser of the climb limit, runway limit, or structural limit. The engine anti-ice correction applies to the climb limit. In this case at ROC at 0C it shows 219.1. This assures you're not gonna hit something on a go-around. I think this 189100was based on one engine Inop. The SUB LB/KT has nothing to do with it, that is down in the runway limit part of the chart. Draw a line where it says LANDING FIELD LIMIT LENGTHS.
2. Beside the runway, length, and slope there is a column from -10kts to 20kts. Those are your weights. Runway 5 with a 5 kt tailwind (-5) gives you 189100 lbs. A 10 kt headwind is 190000 lbs.
3. CRT TW is a penalty in weight reduction. For every kt over the CRT TW you have to take a penalty. I'm a little fuzzy on this part so maybe someone else can step in.
4. On the Landing Field Length you have 4 columns. Two show anti-skid operational and 2 inop. This is broken down into columns showing auto-spoilers and manual spoilers. These are then broken down into dry or wet runway. Runway 5 with calm winds, goes from 190000 down to 164400 with loss of anti-skid.
The N/A areas mean not allowed. When you have a wet runway, no anti-skid, and a shortish runway you get that.
Take the climb limit weight (go around), the landing field limit weight (get the sucker stopped), and the max structural landing weight and compare. You're limited by the smallest.
1. Landing weight is the lesser of the climb limit, runway limit, or structural limit. The engine anti-ice correction applies to the climb limit. In this case at ROC at 0C it shows 219.1. This assures you're not gonna hit something on a go-around. I think this 189100was based on one engine Inop. The SUB LB/KT has nothing to do with it, that is down in the runway limit part of the chart. Draw a line where it says LANDING FIELD LIMIT LENGTHS.
2. Beside the runway, length, and slope there is a column from -10kts to 20kts. Those are your weights. Runway 5 with a 5 kt tailwind (-5) gives you 189100 lbs. A 10 kt headwind is 190000 lbs.
3. CRT TW is a penalty in weight reduction. For every kt over the CRT TW you have to take a penalty. I'm a little fuzzy on this part so maybe someone else can step in.
4. On the Landing Field Length you have 4 columns. Two show anti-skid operational and 2 inop. This is broken down into columns showing auto-spoilers and manual spoilers. These are then broken down into dry or wet runway. Runway 5 with calm winds, goes from 190000 down to 164400 with loss of anti-skid.
The N/A areas mean not allowed. When you have a wet runway, no anti-skid, and a shortish runway you get that.
Take the climb limit weight (go around), the landing field limit weight (get the sucker stopped), and the max structural landing weight and compare. You're limited by the smallest.
dtuuri
Final Approach
That's the one I referred to.
Right.
The minus sign is for a tailwind. Notice the max tailwind component is 10 kts.
I dunno. CRT=Correct for? TW=Tailwind? Can't fig'r it oot.
Sure. You need less runway with anti-skid than without. Same for Auto spoilers vs. manual.
dtuuri
dtuuri
Final Approach
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
1. Ok, so for runway 4 at ROC, at what point am I supposed to subtract 1177 pounds from the landing weight limit?
2. Ok, I got it
3. So in the case of runway 4 at ROC, that says "CRT TW -6", it means that if I have a tail wind of say 10 knots, I have to subtract about 24 pounds from the landing weight limit?
4. Ok, I got it, thanks.
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Ok, so just to clarify, assuming my anti ice is on, since I'm landing on runway 4 at ROC, I have to subtract 1,177 pounds from my landing weight limit if my spoilers are operational on a dry runway. Is this correct?
dtuuri
Final Approach
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
So the anti ice correction is only for the climb limit?
dtuuri
Final Approach
Yes.
Gucci Pilot
Pattern Altitude
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Gucci Pilot
Thats what it is for us too. When we are all engine we use it to start the clean up.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Btw, thank you for liking this post. Now I need just one more to surpass Mari in percent of "likes".
dtuuri
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Ok, so is it saying subtract 20 pounds from the max climb limit if anti-ice is on? Also, this still doesn't tell us why I would subtract 1,177 pounds from the landing weight limit for runway 4 at ROC.
KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
You subtract 1177 pounds/knot once you hit the critical tailwind limit, which for runway 4, begins with a 6 knot tailwind.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Not sure where you see 20#. The note at the top says climb performance isn't limiting below 43°C. That implies the cooler it gets, the better the approach climb performance. Above that number (a real hot day), with an engine inop, it struggles.
dtuuri
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Well I was referring to the line concerning corrections for anti-ice on below:
What the heck does that mean? I guess no corrections are needed at all below 43 degrees celsius and above -20 degrees celsius. What if the temperature is below -20 degrees celsius?
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MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
It means no correction (0 lbs) is required above a temperature of -20 degrees C. Since -20C is the coldest temperature in this analysis, no correction is required for anti-ice on at any temperature that it would be used.
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
What if the temperature is below -20 degrees Celsius? Its weird that it doesn't tell us what to do if it gets colder than -20 degrees. I still can't figure out why I'm subtracting 1,117 pounds from the landing weight limit for runway 4 either.
dtuuri
Final Approach
When it's colder than -20°C (brrrr), apparently there's never a correction--only sometimes when it's warmer than that. But here, on this runway at this airport, there isn't a correction value even if it is warmer. At a higher elevation, say Denver, things might be different.
dtuuri
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
I see, we still have to solve this mystery concerning the term "SUB LB/KT" for each runway for the landing weight limit. I guess if it says subtract from the weight limit, you do it no matter what.
dtuuri
Final Approach
That's 4 degrees below zero Fahrenheit. The air is so dense no corrections are needed--use the next higher temperature numbers for conservatism.
You aren't subtracting 1,117 pounds--you subtract that many pounds for EVERY knot over 6 from the tail. The reason is your ground speed is higher, the landing roll is longer and the brake energy available may be less at the higher speed. So you need to be lighter to stop in the runway distance available.
dtuuri
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Ahh I see (I think), so that's what the term "CRT TW" means? So if I have a 10 knot tail wind, the overall deduction will be 4,468 pounds from the weight limit?
dtuuri
Final Approach
Btw, I made edits--I was thinking takeoff earlier. BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Just when I thought I had it all figured I find something else. On the bottom of the takeoff performance charts it has the following corrections to be made for weight and speed that I don't quite understand.
QNH +lb/ .1
QNH. -lb/ .1
APT inop-lb
EFWL inop-lb
1/4" cont-lb/V1
1/2" cont-lb/V1
Also, am I always supposed to add pounds to the overall takeoff weight limit for Accelerated height?
QNH +lb/ .1
QNH. -lb/ .1
APT inop-lb
EFWL inop-lb
1/4" cont-lb/V1
1/2" cont-lb/V1
Also, am I always supposed to add pounds to the overall takeoff weight limit for Accelerated height?
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
QNH is the altimeter setting...if the pressure is higher than standard, you can add the weights shown. Lower than standard, subtract.
1/4" CONT and 1/2" CONT refer to depth of runway contamination...not sure what type of contamination, though. Contamination decreases takeoff weight by the amount shown and reduces V1 speed by the amount after the / .
The ACCEL ALT is the altitude (MSL) at which you are to accelerate to retract flaps and get to your final segment climb speed. There's no weight adjustment in that line.
1/4" CONT and 1/2" CONT refer to depth of runway contamination...not sure what type of contamination, though. Contamination decreases takeoff weight by the amount shown and reduces V1 speed by the amount after the / .
The ACCEL ALT is the altitude (MSL) at which you are to accelerate to retract flaps and get to your final segment climb speed. There's no weight adjustment in that line.
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
I see, so KMLI airports current altimeter setting is 30.01 inches of mercury. Since this is higher than standard, I'm adding the weights given in the charts?
I'm certain that this is in reference to anything we would consider runway contamination, snow, water, standing slush, ice.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
In the runway analysis chart below, I found out what the terms 'EFWL' and 'APT' stands for. EFWL stands for Engine Fuel Warning Lights and APT is means 'Auto Pack Trip'. According to 'Aircraft Performance Group', the company that made this chart, these two items have to do with the pilots ability to quickly respond in the event of an engine failure during takeoff. So if these items are inoperative, the maximum allowable takeoff weight will have to be reduced.
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Does anybody know how to interpolate? The numbers below are from a runway analysis landing chart. In the instructions I was given, they somehow got 195.000 pounds as the approach climb limit with an outside air temperature of 8 degrees Celsius. What is the actual formula for getting this answer?
Temp (c): -20 19
Climb WT: 209.1 190.0
Temp (c): -20 19
Climb WT: 209.1 190.0
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
Temp (c): -20 / 19
Climb WT: 209.1 / 190.0
I think I more or less figured it out with the six step process below:
Its not exactly 195,000 pounds but its pretty close, which means I must be doing something right.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Whew. Damn good thing it says "observe structural limits." Things coulda got ugly without that
BlackManINC
Pre-Flight
My last two posts was in reference to the planes ability to perform a missed approach with the weights given in the chart. For a landing, the structural limit of the Boeing 727-200 is 150,000 pounds. I'm sure the structural limits would be higher across the board if you take the passenger load out of the equation.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Quoting my own post here. It was just a tongue in cheek punchline on "disclaimers." Like someone said when they were making the chart "dude, we better remind them not to break the plane." Probably wasn't all that appropriate. It's a serious subject. It wasn't directed at any particular post.
Mark Prange
Filing Flight Plan
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