Rolling a Business Jet? How common?

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
So, this evening I'm sitting with my family eating at Cafe Rio a few blocks away from SDL (Scottsdale).

At the table next to me, one pilot is talking to another. They are unaware I am listening.

He describes how he had always done at least one roll in every aircraft he's ever flown. One day, they were on a dead-head leg back from Vegas in a G4 with no flight attendant which he describes as "unusual". Says "OK, it was now or never". He was the senior pilot on the flight deck training a newly upgraded FO in captain duties.

Goes on to describe precautions taken to ensure there's nothing on the CVR about their discussion (uses hand signals with the other pilot) and proceeds to roll the G-IV without spilling their coffee. Goes on to say how if for some reason the computer had detected this their story was going to be "wake turbulence" from another aircraft.

The other, clearly more junior pilot says, "what would have happened if you did it wrong?" Senior guy says, "worst case scenario, we do not maintain positive G loading and the china, glassware, etc. all shatters. In that case we would have blamed it on "severe turbulence".

I half wanted to lean over to their table and say, "Hi, I'm from the local FSDO, can you tell me more about that?" But I kept my mouth shut.

Is "rolling" a biz jet more common than I thought? Is this something a lot of pilots do? Seems to be unnecessarily risky. I own an piston single, and even I don't think I would chance it. I don't have anyone looking over my shoulder or a career to lose over it either. What are these guys thinking?!
 
BTW, I think the "worst case scenario" described understates the possibilities quite a bit...
 
Years ago I saw an interview of a British Airways pilot who said his check pilot in the Concorde rolled the airplane then told him, "Well, I've gone round one way, now you'll have to unwind it!"
 
I know a guy who says he's rolled a citation. I have no reason not to believe him.
 
My first job out of A&P school was for a company that had a fleet of G-1's (see Avatar) converted to freighters. I worked the line at the freight hub where all the aircraft came in just after midnight and left around 4 or 5 am (except for one spare we usually kept). One night, I went into a cockpit to debrief the crew and the captain says 'we'll need a post roll inspection', I look at the FO, he looks sick and doesn't say a thing.... I go.... ok.... and went an did a normal walkaround.
 
I had it on good authority that a guy did this I a 737 at one point... Though I only heard the story secondhand (from a chief pilot at the airline in question).
 
Most folks with livelihoods riding on their ticket have probably gotten that crap out of their system by the time they reach a level of responsibility that commands a salary worth protecting, but some folks insist on messing around with already underwhelming transport category aircraft in ways that could cause harm to others or themselves. I have little patience for that kind of buffoonery.

There's plenty of access to aerobatic aircraft on your time off, otherwise it's not my fault you can't fly a tactical aircraft for a living and are bored to tears behind an FMS equipped yacht. Though it's a sensitive subject in my prior community (bombers) I've seen what transpires when people have something to prove and don't get it out of their system properly. Innocent bystanders die. Go do that stuff on your own time and on your own spam can; leave the work equipment alone and within the placarded ops limits. Lord knows nobody cares or is impressed by it.
 
1g all the way around shouldnt hurt anything. No idea if its common though. I'd probably only do it if it was my plane.
 
falconkidding said:
1g all the way around shouldnt hurt anything. No idea if its common though. I'd probably only do it if it was my plane.
Click to expand...

Boeing 707 Barrel Roll - Pilot Tex Johnston Performs Roll In Dash-80 Prototype Aircraft In 1955


As part of the Dash 80s demonstration program, Bill Allen invited representatives of the Aircraft Industries Association and International Air Transport Association to the Seattle's 1955 Seafair and Gold Cup Hydroplane Races held on Lake Washington on August 6, 1955. The Dash-80 was scheduled to perform a simple flyover, but Boeing test pilot Alvin "Tex" Johnston instead performed a barrel roll to show off the jet airliner. The next day, Allen summoned Johnston to his office and told him not to perform such a maneuver again, Johnston's assertion that doing so was completely safe. Boeing Chief Test Pilot John Cashman stated that just before he piloted the maiden flight of the Boeing 777 on June 12, 1994, his last instructions from then Boeing President Phil Condit were "No rolls".
 
hindsight2020 said:
Most folks with livelihoods riding on their ticket have probably gotten that crap out of their system by the time they reach a level of responsibility that commands a salary worth protecting, but some folks insist on messing around with already underwhelming transport category aircraft in ways that could cause harm to others or themselves. I have little patience for that kind of buffoonery.

There's plenty of access to aerobatic aircraft on your time off, otherwise it's not my fault you can't fly a tactical aircraft for a living and are bored to tears behind an FMS equipped yacht. Though it's a sensitive subject in my prior community (bombers) I've seen what transpires when people have something to prove and don't get it out of their system properly. Innocent bystanders die. Go do that stuff on your own time and on your own spam can; leave the work equipment alone and within the placarded ops limits. Lord knows nobody cares or is impressed by it.
Click to expand...

Of all the guys I've flown with, no one has even seriously suggested it. I've flown with a prima donna or two but no body that had that much of a cowboy attitude.
 
One word answers come to mind:
stupidity
unprofessional
disrespectful (of owners; of the aircraft)
oh, "fatal" too.

There was a Lear whose pilot was suspected of doing such aerobatics - ended as a high speed crash into desert near here.
It applies to non-bizjets too. Bonanza pilot, acquaintance of mine, well known in the area, Pt 135 too, also got "bored in the cockpit syndrome", low level roll over the airport as mechanic watched (he was warming the oil for an oil change), pulled instead of pushed; smoking divot.

Don't even think about it, certainly don't encourage it.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
One word answers come to mind:
stupidity
unprofessional
disrespectful (of owners; of the aircraft)
oh, "fatal" too.

There was a Lear whose pilot was suspected of doing such aerobatics - ended as a high speed crash into desert near here.
It applies to non-bizjets too. Bonanza pilot, acquaintance of mine, well known in the area, Pt 135 too, also got "bored in the cockpit syndrome", low level roll over the airport as mechanic watched (he was warming the oil for an oil change), pulled instead of pushed; smoking divot.

Don't even think about it, certainly don't encourage it.
Click to expand...

NOT to say rolling a non aerobatic plane is a good idea, however what you describe isn't a issue with a 1G roll, it's a issue with a airman who doesn't know how to do a 1G roll.
 
There's no such thing as a 1G roll. Despite Tex's explanation of the dash 80 roll, the barrel roll is not a 1G manoeuvre (very few are). It is a small number of positive G's however (ranging from .5 to about 2.5 in a well-executed roll).

Whatever you do, don't do it with a bunch of passengers loaded up to gross. My friend with a Baron gets nervous when I grab the wheel and say "I think I can roll this thing."
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/GeneratePDF.aspx?id=ATL07FA077&rpt=fa
 
I hope it's not common, but you never know what some people come up with... I flew MC-12's in Afghanistan back in 2011, I saw (not realizing it at the time) the same thing hindsight was talking about. Turns out guys were rolling that fat pig of a King Air - and some of them were fighter guys. WTFO????

I've always thought airplanes are tools - some are meant for cutting and some are meant for cruising; use accordingly.
 
while not "common", it does happen...and occasionally the results are fatal.
 
I've known a few guys that have rolled business jets. Citations, Lears, and one guy that rolled his Falcon 20. I wouldn't say it's common, though.
 
dans2992 said:
So, this evening I'm sitting with my family eating at Cafe Rio a few blocks away from SDL (Scottsdale).

At the table next to me, one pilot is talking to another. They are unaware I am listening.

He describes how he had always done at least one roll in every aircraft he's ever flown. One day, they were on a dead-head leg back from Vegas in a G4 with no flight attendant which he describes as "unusual". Says "OK, it was now or never". He was the senior pilot on the flight deck training a newly upgraded FO in captain duties.

Goes on to describe precautions taken to ensure there's nothing on the CVR about their discussion (uses hand signals with the other pilot) and proceeds to roll the G-IV without spilling their coffee. Goes on to say how if for some reason the computer had detected this their story was going to be "wake turbulence" from another aircraft.

The other, clearly more junior pilot says, "what would have happened if you did it wrong?" Senior guy says, "worst case scenario, we do not maintain positive G loading and the china, glassware, etc. all shatters. In that case we would have blamed it on "severe turbulence".

I half wanted to lean over to their table and say, "Hi, I'm from the local FSDO, can you tell me more about that?" But I kept my mouth shut.

Is "rolling" a biz jet more common than I thought? Is this something a lot of pilots do? Seems to be unnecessarily risky. I own an piston single, and even I don't think I would chance it. I don't have anyone looking over my shoulder or a career to lose over it either. What are these guys thinking?!
Click to expand...

Lost a good friend and fellow instructor who had moved into corporate jet sales. He was in the back of a business jet with two ex-USAF pilots up front taking off from an airport in California. He had just closed the sale of the aircraft and the two hotshots decided that a victory roll on takeoff would be a suitable celebration. Plane landed inverted. So my caveat would be: If you are going to do it, don't do it on takeoff."

Bob Gardner
 
Some of the attitudes here I find difficult to comprehend.
Talking about rolling an airplane not designed for aerobatics like it is a harmless prank.
Talking as though the only pilots who should not attempt it are the ones who don't know how.
Implying that the only reason you shouldn't attempt it is if you are not as good a pilot as I.
Here is a link to what happens when that attitude is taken to it's conclusion;
If you want to get upside down in an airplane go find one that is designed for it.
If you must act out do it when you are alone in the airplane and will only kill yourself.
 
kgruber said:
Was that a Falcon 10? I remember the young man, a sharp dresser. But I forget his name. Can't find the accident report.
https://aviation-safety.net/database/airport/airport.php?id=BFI

Although, Don Slipper's accident is in there. https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19991212-1
That accident reduced Seattle's oldest FBO to the shell that it is today. It was to be the last flight of the Westwind. They were going to TEB to pick up a new Falcon 50.
Click to expand...

Rich Pascoe. He had been recently married to an Alaska Airlines flight attendant, a real knockout, and I can remember that when we attended the memorial service she sat in an alcove and keened for the whole duration. That is the only word that fits: "A lamentation for the dead uttered in a loud wailing voice or sometimes in a wordless cry." He was a hell of a guy and died for no good reason.

Bob
 
For most airplanes, if it can't be rolled successfully, it probably shouldn't be certified. The margin for error might be less, but it shouldn't break or depart controlled flight.

Not saying doing a roll in a airborne bus (or limo) is a good idea, just that it should be doable without too much drama. Not on the deck, of course. . .
 
EvilEagle said:
I hope it's not common, but you never know what some people come up with... I flew MC-12's in Afghanistan back in 2011, I saw (not realizing it at the time) the same thing hindsight was talking about. Turns out guys were rolling that fat pig of a King Air - and some of them were fighter guys. WTFO????

I've always thought airplanes are tools - some are meant for cutting and some are meant for cruising; use accordingly.
Click to expand...

Years ago when I was the USAF staff we chartered Learjets for use in various training and testing stuff. All the Captains were ex-fighter pilots. One of them went nuts up in Alaska one day, rolled the airplane, buzzed some houses, and in general acted like a 13 year old.

He got caught, but I was pretty sure that many of those guys having trouble controlling their inner teenager. For the next rev of the contract we spec'd that the airplanes would have a GPS (back when gps was new and exotic) connect to an ACARS unit. So we could keep a leash on some of those old guys.
 
flyingron said:
There's no such thing as a 1G roll. Despite Tex's explanation of the dash 80 roll, the barrel roll is not a 1G manoeuvre (very few are). It is a small number of positive G's however (ranging from .5 to about 2.5 in a well-executed roll).

Whatever you do, don't do it with a bunch of passengers loaded up to gross. My friend with a Baron gets nervous when I grab the wheel and say "I think I can roll this thing."
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/GeneratePDF.aspx?id=ATL07FA077&rpt=fa
Click to expand...

That is exactly the report I was thinking of when I saw the thread title.

"I think I can roll this airplane."
"I believe it's possible to roll this airplane."
"I believe it is possible to roll this airplane."

The witness then saw a portion of the airplane break away prior to impact. Postaccident inspection of the airplane by the NTSB investigator-in-charge and the NTSB Materials Laboratory, disclosed evidence of pilot-induced overload failures of the tail and wings. The accident pilot's airplane was not designed or approved for aerobatic flight.
 
dans2992 said:
Is "rolling" a biz jet more common than I thought?
Click to expand...
Here's what Peter Garrison had to say about it:

``It's the old roll-the-LearJet phenomenon, where you'd finish an hour and a half of hauling the jet through simulated emergencies, holding patterns and ILS approaches, and on the way home the instructor would say, "Here, I've got it," and do a roll or two just to show that he's really a good guy and knows that the rulebook isn't everyhing.''
 
I maybe know a guy who knows a guy...

...who claims that he was doing simulator training for a major carrier. He had felt like he had aced everything, was feeling on his game, confident, and had done a really good job.

The sim check guy said something to the effect of "Well, you're done, good job. We have time for one more approach, mind if I fly this one?" The fella agreed; the sim check guy rolled the plane, and flew the entire approach upside-down! Needles were centered the entire time.

If memory serves, he righted it at decision altitude, and made a normal landing.
 
StevieTimes said:
I maybe know a guy who knows a guy...

...who claims that he was doing simulator training for a major carrier. He had felt like he had aced everything, was feeling on his game, confident, and had done a really good job.

The sim check guy said something to the effect of "Well, you're done, good job. We have time for one more approach, mind if I fly this one?" The fella agreed; the sim check guy rolled the plane, and flew the entire approach upside-down! Needles were centered the entire time.

If memory serves, he righted it at decision altitude, and made a normal landing.
Click to expand...

We used to do the same thing in the T-38 sim. Worked like a champ.
 
StevieTimes said:
I maybe know a guy who knows a guy...

...who claims that he was doing simulator training for a major carrier. He had felt like he had aced everything, was feeling on his game, confident, and had done a really good job.

The sim check guy said something to the effect of "Well, you're done, good job. We have time for one more approach, mind if I fly this one?" The fella agreed; the sim check guy rolled the plane, and flew the entire approach upside-down! Needles were centered the entire time.

If memory serves, he righted it at decision altitude, and made a normal landing.
Click to expand...

We had IPs do the same at my airline. I really wasn't impressed as they 'fly' the sim all the time and were mostly just showing off. Doubt they could do that with the actual plane, even if they were fool enough to try it. Then again, look at that B52 pilot....
 
i love the EXPERTS here. any aircraft is capable of a barrel roll. However, very few pilots of capable of doing it correctly. look how many airshow acts are out there that are rolling non aerobatic aircraft. the BIG difference is that they are well trained, professional aerobatic pilots. the accidents that happen are not from doing the roll but screwing up the roll. It is very easy to over-control the aircraft and load up, or unload the airframe. joe average pilot is dangerous in a pitts doing a roll because he/she does not have the training to do it properly. Is it a smart thing to do? no, do I advocate doing it? not unless your name is bob hoover, kyle franklin or some other well know names. Have i done it in the sim of every thing that I am typed in? no comment. have I done it in an aircraft not aerobatic rated, NO and never will do it.
 
EvilEagle said:
I hope it's not common, but you never know what some people come up with... I flew MC-12's in Afghanistan back in 2011, I saw (not realizing it at the time) the same thing hindsight was talking about. Turns out guys were rolling that fat pig of a King Air - and some of them were fighter guys. WTFO????

I've always thought airplanes are tools - some are meant for cutting and some are meant for cruising; use accordingly.
Click to expand...

Is that what lead to the MC-12 loss IVO Bagram? I never saw the report or saw it in Blue Four.
 
mscard88 said:
We had IPs do the same at my airline. I really wasn't impressed as they 'fly' the sim all the time and were mostly just showing off. Doubt they could do that with the actual plane, even if they were fool enough to try it. Then again, look at that B52 pilot....
Click to expand...
I know they couldn't...I have yet to see an airliner or corporate jet with inverted fuel. ;)
 
TCABM said:
Is that what lead to the MC-12 loss IVO Bagram? I never saw the report or saw it in Blue Four.
Click to expand...

The I believe you're thinking of was thought to have been caused by wake turbulence.

There was another MC-12 crash that happened quite a bit south of Bagram that was caused by **** poor airmanship.
 
TCABM said:
Is that what lead to the MC-12 loss IVO Bagram? I never saw the report or saw it in Blue Four.
Click to expand...
I'm only aware of one MC-12 loss (not saying there aren't more) but it was classic not-paying-attention-and-letting-the-automation-put-you-in-a-corner; I believe that was a Kandahar crew. That was one thing that happened a lot more than it should have. I saw and flew with folks who'd allowed the airplane to get covered up with ice before they checked the wings. Also those who let the mission pull them into thunderstorms - and the t-storms on the Pakistan border make the big TX ones look small.
 
There was a C-12 that went down in 2009 in Afghanistan right before I got there. They balled up a 60 at high altitude while searching for the C-12. :(
 
Velocity173 said:
There was a C-12 that went down in 2009 in Afghanistan right before I got there. They balled up a 60 at high altitude while searching for the C-12. :(
Click to expand...

I don't think that accident report has been made public.

EvilEagle said:
I'm only aware of one MC-12 loss (not saying there aren't more) but it was classic not-paying-attention-and-letting-the-automation-put-you-in-a-corner; I believe that was a Kandahar crew. That was one thing that happened a lot more than it should have. I saw and flew with folks who'd allowed the airplane to get covered up with ice before they checked the wings. Also those who let the mission pull them into thunderstorms - and the t-storms on the Pakistan border make the big TX ones look small.
Click to expand...

This is the one I was referring to as **** poor airmanship.

BTW... When I refer to "MC-12" I'm referring to all the King Airs that are configured for similar mission work (Civilian and military).
 
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