Revitalizing Small/Older Airports

[Jeff K]

You paying? For these little airports to have emergency value we now need proper length and condition runways, instrument approaches, etc. Money adds up, where is it going to come from?

Actually he is paying as well as any of us who use the air system. It's called user fees (taxes on fuel).

http://www.tcpilots.org/funding.html

If he wanted to get the access to these funds, his county would need to kick in a small amount, typically 5 cents on the dollar. But this is money that is already taken from our local pockets and sitting in a federal pot.... it's to a county's advantage to apply for the grants so the tax dollars come home.

 

[docmirror]

If it were not for taxpayers money, ( provided by the state and federal govt.) most of mary lands smaller airports would have closed long ago. Probably true in many other states as well.

This can be said about every tertiary road in the US. Suppose we look at hwy 434 to 120 out of Angel Fire NM. I drove it two years ago. It's a broke down, rutted, bumpy, winding track with no guard rails. I didn't ask for more money to be spent, I didn't complain about the cost of keeping it open. I drove it and for 25 miles didn't see another car anywhere. There are private homes along hwy 120, and those people use that road to get to their homes. It's all part of the infrastructure we agreed to when we filled out a 1040 each year.

But wait - there's more! Highways are funded by a mix of gas tax, state gen funds, and general fed funds. No special 'national highway and roadway trust fund' exists. Now hold on to your hats, cuz there is a specific "airport and airway trust fund". If you think that's weird here's some icing for you. As of now, it has $13 BILLION dollar surplus! Do you know what the feds do with that surplus? Why yes, they do spend it on things not related to aviation, or in some years they count that money as an offset to the fed deficit! Magic!

This gnashing of teeth about the funding on small runways always gets me going. Did you know the feds provide funds for dredging of waterways? Well, sure - that makes sense. The whole country relies on water-bourne traffic, and keeping the sea-lanes open is important. I can groc that too. The good county/city folks in the city of Lake Have-a-screw(Havasu) AZ got wind of this program and applied for funds to have the CO river dredged. Not the whole river mind you, just the part that goes under the London bridge to a man-made island. No, I ain't kidding, it was approved. I know, because I used to be on the team that got the contract for the dredging back in the 80s. So the first week of Dec, there we were with a 30x75 barge, and a bucket loader, and sure enough, we dredged the canal. I will not report what we found, but the weight of the Aluminum from beer cans would have been worth thousands.

 

[Brad Z]

Actually he is paying as well as any of us who use the air system. It's called user fees (taxes on fuel).

http://www.tcpilots.org/funding.html

If he wanted to get the access to these funds, his county would need to kick in a small amount, typically 5 cents on the dollar. But this is money that is already taken from our local pockets and sitting in a federal pot.... it's to a county's advantage to apply for the grants so the tax dollars come home.

That's assuming the airport qualifies for AIP funding, which requires a 10% local match typically. Only about 2/3 of all public use airports are federally funded.

 

[Jeff K]

That's assuming the airport qualifies for AIP funding, which requires a 10% local match typically. Only about 2/3 of all public use airports are federally funded.

Of course, I don't believe the OP has ID'ed the airport. I'm not sure in Texas but in Michigan the match is about 5%.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

And where airports were wanted and people had chutzpah they would have built them. go look in the hangars of privately owned airports good chance the airport owner also owns a fire truck or two. Just for fun. And because they have a place to keep it, with no one who can say they can't.

Most small airports exist for one reason. The G.I. Bill. This created an excellent airplane demand after WW 2 which funded and kept alive small airports thru pilot training. Very few were funded by private funds and if they were they were depend on state- govt funds to remain open today. ( not to mention the millions of college degrees funded this way after ww2. Which gave vets the ability to get into the middle class and make a decent living. Here in maryland most small airports if not all depend on state- federal money or they would have to close, which in spite of this help, they are close to closing anyway. Easy to research.

 

[LevelWing]

I spoke with the managers of the airport recently. The county doesn't maintain anything at the airport except for mowing around the runway on occasion (despite it being a county airport). The managers also run an FBO/maintenance shop there but do not seem interested in improving anything. Their answer was along the lines of "we're a small airport and GA is dying and there isn't much we can do". I think they're pretty satisfied with the status-quo. They're gas prices are reasonable (in comparison to the bigger airport near by) but they do not keep a large supply of gas on hand nor are they interested in having more. At this point it would seem that there isn't much that can be done.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

In maryland the state provides money for mowers ( big expensive ones) security fencing around a lot of the airport, prints a yearly airport manual complete with aerial picture of each airport, paving to a large degree. If it were not for this most would close. ( Martin state airport, used to be Glen L. Martin airport. Taken over by the state when Martin was bought out by Lockeed. I'm sure more govt. Money is included that I know not of. Without this help, most would be gone. (The one private one I know about is a ghost town. Funded by an industrial park that has a lot of vacancys.) Martin state airport is also home to the md. Air guards aircraft. More govt. Money.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I spoke with the managers of the airport recently. The county doesn't maintain anything at the airport except for mowing around the runway on occasion (despite it being a county airport). The managers also run an FBO/maintenance shop there but do not seem interested in improving anything. Their answer was along the lines of "we're a small airport and GA is dying and there isn't much we can do". I think they're pretty satisfied with the status-quo. They're gas prices are reasonable (in comparison to the bigger airport near by) but they do not keep a large supply of gas on hand nor are they interested in having more. At this point it would seem that there isn't much that can be done.

I doubt if their satisfied with the status quo. They simply don't want to invest in a losing proposition. Some of them remember when a new beech bonanza sold for 15-20 thousand and a new champ was 2 grand, now selling for 85 thousand! Absurd! I agree that they are praying for a developer to buy them out.

 

[Brad Z]

Of course, I don't believe the OP has ID'ed the airport. I'm not sure in Texas but in Michigan the match is about 5%.

The Feds pay 90%. In some cases, such as perhaps Michigan, the state kicks in 5%, leaving the airport with the final 5%.

Of course, even if the airport is not federally funded, there is often still state funding for improvements. Thing is, somebody has to ask for it.

 

[Neal Howard]

Sounds like Wichita Valley.

Wichita Valley is privately owned and doing just fine. Our runways are smooth, paved and turf. Our hangars are all full of airplanes, most are regularly flown. Our FBO was recently completely renovated and is also home to the Sheppard Air test prep software company.

 

[brian]]

I spoke with the managers of the airport recently. The county doesn't maintain anything at the airport except for mowing around the runway on occasion (despite it being a county airport). The managers also run an FBO/maintenance shop there but do not seem interested in improving anything. Their answer was along the lines of "we're a small airport and GA is dying and there isn't much we can do". I think they're pretty satisfied with the status-quo. They're gas prices are reasonable (in comparison to the bigger airport near by) but they do not keep a large supply of gas on hand nor are they interested in having more. At this point it would seem that there isn't much that can be done.

You really need to see about getting an EAA chapter interested in adopting this airport. Not sure if this is a possibility, but I did notice a real change at 4M3. It was a real ghost town minus a student from another town doing touch and goes. Now there is a lot more activity and I'm sure they are selling more gas...

 

[LevelWing]

You really need to see about getting an EAA chapter interested in adopting this airport. Not sure if this is a possibility, but I did notice a real change at 4M3. It was a real ghost town minus a student from another town doing touch and goes. Now there is a lot more activity and I'm sure they are selling more gas...

What you describe sounds about like this airport. Mostly a ghost town save for the students who use it for touch and goes since it's less busy than other nearby airports and crop dusters. They do not have any hangar or storage space nor any place for an EAA chapter to meet unless they did it out on the ramp, which has no shade. I can look into it, though.

 

[Jeff K]

I spoke with the managers of the airport recently. The county doesn't maintain anything at the airport except for mowing around the runway on occasion (despite it being a county airport). The managers also run an FBO/maintenance shop there but do not seem interested in improving anything. Their answer was along the lines of "we're a small airport and GA is dying and there isn't much we can do". I think they're pretty satisfied with the status-quo. They're gas prices are reasonable (in comparison to the bigger airport near by) but they do not keep a large supply of gas on hand nor are they interested in having more. At this point it would seem that there isn't much that can be done.

I'm a bit confused here, didn't you enter this conversation asking:

---"Is it even worth trying to do anything?"

Did you actually think things were they way were because someone was stopping the airport manager from doing a better job? Did you think some magic airport fairy would descend from the heavens and fix everything just because you complained about it on POA?

Can you clarify the point of your question? I think maybe identifying your vested interest might help things. Is this an airport you just pass by or an airport you base your aircraft at and the only one within 30 miles? The later is my situation and my vested interest to be involved. You also might want to talk with some of the crop dusters as well, who also have a vested interest.

Have they gotten federal funds and possible in violation of their federal grant assurances? Not guess, know. And even if they aren't getting federal funds... they appear to be owned by the county. I'm sure it's a resource the county owns for a reason and wants to use to promote business in the county.

Talking to the airport manager is something you should do, but you also need to be talking with both the county executives as well as other pilots. Alot of these small counties and town's are bastons of the good 'ole boy network and just set in there ways. Nothing overt... but year after year just enough work gets done to get by. A good kick in the pants from time to time keeps politicians and government workers on their toes. Be that boot and don't sit on your hands and let another airport die without even trying.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

If any airport deserved private funding it was new garden , owned by lex dupont. He started it years ago . Sold it to the county a few years ago. I'm sure some private interest looked at it and said no. I'm sure many have heard the saying " how to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a big one"

 

[LevelWing]

I'm a bit confused here, didn't you enter this conversation asking:

---"Is it even worth trying to do anything?"

Did you actually think things were they way were because someone was stopping the airport manager from doing a better job? Did you think some magic airport fairy would descend from the heavens and fix everything just because you complained about it on POA?

It was a thought, not a statement of fact, based on the conversation I had with the managers.

Can you clarify the point of your question? I think maybe identifying your vested interest might help things. Is this an airport you just pass by or an airport you base your aircraft at and the only one within 30 miles? The later is my situation and my vested interest to be involved. You also might want to talk with some of the crop dusters as well, who also have a vested interest.

I was based out of there for a very short time until I was able to get a hangar at a nearby airport. My interest is in not seeing a good airport die. Seeing an airport come back to life would be a good thing for GA and hopefully get new people involved in aviation.

Have they gotten federal funds and possible in violation of their federal grant assurances? Not guess, know. And even if they aren't getting federal funds... they appear to be owned by the county. I'm sure it's a resource the county owns for a reason and wants to use to promote business in the county.

Is there a way to find out if they've received federal funding? If they did and are in violation of federal grant assurances then the county likely doesn't know or I'm sure they would have done something to correct the issue.

Talking to the airport manager is something you should do, but you also need to be talking with both the county executives as well as other pilots. Alot of these small counties and town's are bastons of the good 'ole boy network and just set in there ways. Nothing overt... but year after year just enough work gets done to get by. A good kick in the pants from time to time keeps politicians and government workers on their toes. Be that boot and don't sit on your hands and let another airport die without even trying.

I haven't yet spoken with the county executives but it is on my to-do list. I need to learn more about the airport because right now I only have what AirNav.com, the airport managers and a few of the pilots I've spoken to have said.

 

[Brad Z]

It doesn't really sound like the OP is soliciting help. I'm not really sure what his intent is.

 

[LevelWing]

The discussion and suggestions have been good and is what I'm looking for. Speaking with the county executives is a good idea, as is researching whether the airport has received any federal funding. Hopefully the county executives will be willing to discuss it.

 

[SCCutler]

It is dog-simple to identify whether, and how much, federal AIP funding has been allocated to the airport.

But, we have to know the name of the field.

If you like, you can pm me off line and I'll look into it, maintaining as confidential any data you desire.

 

[Jeff K]

I was based out of there for a very short time until I was able to get a hangar at a nearby airport. My interest is in not seeing a good airport die. Seeing an airport come back to life would be a good thing for GA and hopefully get new people involved in aviation.

I agree. Perhaps asking a few questions at your local airport of the manager might be a way to get an insight over there without alarm bells immediately going up.

But make no mistake, there will be an element of politics involved alot of which involves feet dragging. I don't know if you are like me, but for me staying the course requires something more then good intentions... I need to have a vested interest which I did at my home field. I'm not sure if I could stay the course at someone elses field unless I had some back play going on.

Might I suggest getting involved at your field, learn some of the ropes as to what works and what doesn't, why they are more successful etc? I'm totally on board with what you are doing but I do think someone with a vested interest needs to take the lead... perhaps those crop dusters?

Maybe the field needs to die... but like you I hate to see any field die simply because of neglect from the human element, which really sounds like is the case there.

 

[Jeff K]

It is dog-simple to identify whether, and how much, federal AIP funding has been allocated to the airport.

But, we have to know the name of the field.

If you like, you can pm me off line and I'll look into it, maintaining as confidential any data you desire.

Take him up on that offer. You want to know all this data before you talk with your county executives... who themselves may not know.

 

[peytont]

I'm trying to save T19 (duval/freer). I've talked with the airport manager, she is on board with me trying to help. I PM'd "smoothtalker" for info but in the mean time I'm willing to take whatever help I can get.

What are my options for state and federal funding if the airport is not on the NPIAS list?

T19 is so far gone really the only thing worth saving is the asphalt strip and what remains of the lighting and old hangar. I don't have any grand elusions of doing more than some repairs to fix lights and cracked asphalt. Maybe resurface the runway and give it some new paint and a few new tie-downs.

I'm willing to take whatever advice, suggestions or help you guys can offer.

 

[Henning]

Wichita Valley is privately owned and doing just fine. Our runways are smooth, paved and turf. Our hangars are all full of airplanes, most are regularly flown. Our FBO was recently completely renovated and is also home to the Sheppard Air test prep software company.

Nice, what happened to Al Martin?

 

[Brad Z]

I'm trying to save T19 (duval/freer). I've talked with the airport manager, she is on board with me trying to help. I PM'd "smoothtalker" for info but in the mean time I'm willing to take whatever help I can get.

What are my options for state and federal funding if the airport is not on the NPIAS list?

T19 is so far gone really the only thing worth saving is the asphalt strip and what remains of the lighting and old hangar. I don't have any grand elusions of doing more than some repairs to fix lights and cracked asphalt. Maybe resurface the runway and give it some new paint and a few new tie-downs.

I'm willing to take whatever advice, suggestions or help you guys can offer.

T19 is not in the NPIAS. They may qualify for state funding. Your best bet is to check in with the TexDOT aeronautical division and speak with the rep who handles this airport. The state does fund maintenance projects.

 

[Neal Howard]

Nice, what happened to Al Martin?

Al passed away some years ago, basically from old age health issues.

Wichita Valley airport is doing pretty well these days with good old fashioned grassroots aviation activity, at least as well as the local community can afford under this economy. I'm there pretty much every weekend and flying as frequently as my meager public safety employee's salary allows.

 

[N3368K]

Al passed away some years ago, basically from old age health issues.

Wichita Valley airport is doing pretty well these days with good old fashioned grassroots aviation activity, at least as well as the local community can afford under this economy. I'm there pretty much every weekend and flying as frequently as my meager public safety employee's salary allows.

Wasn't there an avionics shop at Wichita Valley? Back in the mid-80s I seem to recall taking a couple of planes down there for radio work.

 

[Neal Howard]

Wasn't there an avionics shop at Wichita Valley? Back in the mid-80s I seem to recall taking a couple of planes down there for radio work.

Don't know about that far in the past, but there's no avionics shop here anymore... and hasn't been since I started hanging out here in 2000.

 

[Henning]

Al passed away some years ago, basically from old age health issues.

Wichita Valley airport is doing pretty well these days with good old fashioned grassroots aviation activity, at least as well as the local community can afford under this economy. I'm there pretty much every weekend and flying as frequently as my meager public safety employee's salary allows.

Yeah, kinda figured, he was on a bunch of heart meds. I worked for him for a while rebuilding wrecks. He had great B-36 stories.

 

[denverpilot]

You paying? For these little airports to have emergency value we now need proper length and condition runways, instrument approaches, etc. Money adds up, where is it going to come from? Should a busy airport that people with money actually want to use go without, so a deserted podunk airport can exist?

Did we suddenly lose all the helicopters? You need a flat chunk of concrete the size of my driveway most of the time. The larger airports are not far away by helicopter even here in the flyover States.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Did we suddenly lose all the helicopters? You need a flat chunk of concrete the size of my driveway most of the time. The larger airports are not far away by helicopter even here in the flyover States.

Exactly. The public good of little airports is nil.

 

[chemgeek]

For a small GA airport to prosper you need an interested owner or municipality, an aviation oriented oversight body, and a good airport facility consultant. Our community acquired an excellent airport, and after a period of suboptimal management that ran up a 6 figure debt, we put the proper things in place. A decade later, we've had millions of facility improvements, but most importantly the airport hangars are full, we have on-site maintenance, flight training, fuel is selling, we can service heavier corporate jet aircraft, and we are self sufficient. We have succeeded for now despite being in the middle of nowhere. We are the only surviving public use airport in the county. So it can be done, but it takes some dedication and long term planning. We were not always self sufficient but that was our goal, and the local community supported us until we reached that point. No question the state and FAA helped with infrastructure modernization, but that alone will not make it work.

Cheers.