Retract FIKI Turbo Cirrus SR22

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Ben
. . . if such were ever made, what would one project the airspeed gain to be? The gear, with wheel pants, probably doesn't create that much parasite drag. Would you think maybe 10 kts?

The max cruise of a non-retract is 214 kts. If you got it to 225 or 230, that thing would be faaa--aaa-aaast!

(BTW I realize it will never happen, due to retract being against marketing philosophy. But, hey, I can hope! The jet has retract!)
 
. . . if such were ever made, what would one project the airspeed gain to be? The gear, with wheel pants, probably doesn't create that much parasite drag. Would you think maybe 10 kts?

The max cruise of a non-retract is 214 kts. If you got it to 225 or 230, that thing would be faaa--aaa-aaast!

(BTW I realize it will never happen, due to retract being against marketing philosophy. But, hey, I can hope! The jet has retract!)

I think you'd have to thicken up the wing a tad and carve out some fuel capacity in order to get room to store the gear and mechanism. Might be a wash or a slight loss considering the added weight.
 
If you were running Cirrus and your staff told you the plane would probably go 15 knots faster but sales would drop by at least 30% due to pilot inability to acquire insurance, would you continue to pursue retractable gear?

The Cirrus will run neck-and-neck with the Bo now, although with fewer seats. Is Cirrus currently losing a material number of sales due to lack of speed?
 
If you were running Cirrus and your staff told you the plane would probably go 15 knots faster but sales would drop by at least 30% due to pilot inability to acquire insurance, would you continue to pursue retractable gear?

The Cirrus will run neck-and-neck with the Bo now, although with fewer seats. Is Cirrus currently losing a material number of sales due to lack of speed?

The man was dreamin' not doing a market analysis! But, why on earth would the buyer of of a $700K+ plane not be able to acquire insurance just because the wheels fold up?
 
Isn't their gear structure an integral part of their parachute system? I think it's designed to absorb some of the impact. Another strike against folding the gear.
 
Ask the insurance companies and the guys at Cirrus who concluded the insurance costs would be prohibitive if the gear disappeared.

The man was dreamin' not doing a market analysis! But, why on earth would the buyer of of a $700K+ plane not be able to acquire insurance just because the wheels fold up?
 
The max cruise of a non-retract is 214 kts. If you got it to 225 or 230, that thing would be faaa--aaa-aaast!
I had no idea the SR22T was already this fast. Pantera only promises 202kts with all of its efficiency and retracting gear (albeit on 10 gph, but still).
 
I had heard that Cirrus original looked at making a retract, but the weight difference with the retract was not worth the speed gained. I wish I knew where I saw that. I will see if I can find a reference.
 
The man was dreamin' not doing a market analysis! But, why on earth would the buyer of of a $700K+ plane not be able to acquire insurance just because the wheels fold up?
Risk analysis. No chance in a gear up landing with stiff leggers:lol:
 
I had no idea the SR22T was already this fast. Pantera only promises 202kts with all of its efficiency and retracting gear (albeit on 10 gph, but still).

Well, the Panthera is years away and has a 210HP, non-turbocharged engine. Compare that to the SR22T's 315HP engine with turbocharger (the NA model won't get that 215kt speed I'm sure).
 
. . . if such were ever made, what would one project the airspeed gain to be? The gear, with wheel pants, probably doesn't create that much parasite drag. Would you think maybe 10 kts?

The max cruise of a non-retract is 214 kts. If you got it to 225 or 230, that thing would be faaa--aaa-aaast!

(BTW I realize it will never happen, due to retract being against marketing philosophy. But, hey, I can hope! The jet has retract!)

Ben,

Usually folding the gear will give you 15 knots or so - Compare other airplane model pairs where that is the only substantial difference (Cherokee 180 vs. Arrow I, Cherokee Six-300 vs. Lance, 172/182 vs. their RG models, Sundowner vs. Sierra, etc.) and that's about what you get.

In the case of the Cirrus SR22T, I think two things that haven't been mentioned yet would reduce that difference. First, their landing gear is pretty low-drag compared to the other models I mentioned. Second, you're talking about cruise speeds at altitude in a turbocharged plane - Up there, the air is thinner so the drag of the gear will have less of an effect.

So, I would guess that retracting the gear on an SR22T would only buy you 5-10 knots at altitude and that the added weight would cancel out any advantage you had from lower drag in the climb, so that you'd effectively have no difference between the two in the real world.

Let's say that you cruise at 25,000 feet and you're taking off/landing near sea level - You're going to spend 75 minutes climbing/descending (assuming average 1000fpm climb and 500fpm descent), so it's doubtful you'd spend more than 3 hours in cruise. On a trip of that particular distance, the difference would be minimal: If you figure 210 knots on the fixed-leg version and 220 on the folding-leg version at the same power setting, the 3-hour cruise in the fixed-leg version would get you 620nm. In the retract version, that'd take 2 hours, 49 minutes, 5 seconds - Yup, for all the extra money you'll spend in insurance and maintenance, you saved 10 minutes on a 4.25-hour trip to be able to say you went faster. ;)

The thought is cool, though... But if you want to go fast, forget the folding-leg Cirrus and go right to the Mooney Acclaim Type S. 242 KTAS at altitude, and folding legs. I sure wish I could fly one of those - I'm really liking the Mooney Ovation at 170 KTAS down low!
 
And less options for an off field landing or water ditching.

Hmmm.

For the ditching, well, plenty of people have been able to ditch fixed-gear airplanes without flipping them over, and if the gear takes the brunt of the impact the plane may be able to float longer. (Rip a hole in the leading edge of the wing and you're going to take on water much faster.) For my money, on smooth-ish water I'd go in gear up but if the water is rough you risk flipping over even with it up so I'd go in with the gear down.

However, for an off-field landing on land, I'm going to go in gear down every time. That'll give me the best chance to keep my wings, and thus my fuel tanks, from being ripped open by rocks, trees, or whatever else I might hit.
 
Isn't their gear structure an integral part of their parachute system? I think it's designed to absorb some of the impact. Another strike against folding the gear.

I think that's correct.
 
Well, the Panthera is years away and has a 210HP, non-turbocharged engine. Compare that to the SR22T's 315HP engine with turbocharger (the NA model won't get that 215kt speed I'm sure).

It won't. If everything's clean and you have wheel pants, you get 150 typical cruise in the SR20. But considering that it uses essentially the same engine and fuel burn as a Cessna 172--all while having much more room inside--that ain't bad!
 
Ben,

Usually folding the gear will give you 15 knots or so - Compare other airplane model pairs where that is the only substantial difference (Cherokee 180 vs. Arrow I, Cherokee Six-300 vs. Lance, 172/182 vs. their RG models, Sundowner vs. Sierra, etc.) and that's about what you get.

In the case of the Cirrus SR22T, I think two things that haven't been mentioned yet would reduce that difference. First, their landing gear is pretty low-drag compared to the other models I mentioned. Second, you're talking about cruise speeds at altitude in a turbocharged plane - Up there, the air is thinner so the drag of the gear will have less of an effect.

So, I would guess that retracting the gear on an SR22T would only buy you 5-10 knots at altitude and that the added weight would cancel out any advantage you had from lower drag in the climb, so that you'd effectively have no difference between the two in the real world.

Let's say that you cruise at 25,000 feet and you're taking off/landing near sea level - You're going to spend 75 minutes climbing/descending (assuming average 1000fpm climb and 500fpm descent), so it's doubtful you'd spend more than 3 hours in cruise. On a trip of that particular distance, the difference would be minimal: If you figure 210 knots on the fixed-leg version and 220 on the folding-leg version at the same power setting, the 3-hour cruise in the fixed-leg version would get you 620nm. In the retract version, that'd take 2 hours, 49 minutes, 5 seconds - Yup, for all the extra money you'll spend in insurance and maintenance, you saved 10 minutes on a 4.25-hour trip to be able to say you went faster. ;)

The thought is cool, though... But if you want to go fast, forget the folding-leg Cirrus and go right to the Mooney Acclaim Type S. 242 KTAS at altitude, and folding legs. I sure wish I could fly one of those - I'm really liking the Mooney Ovation at 170 KTAS down low!

Good write-up! I think you're right about everything you've said.

The SR22 would get closer to the Acclaim if it weren't so wide, but I really appreciate the room--and so do my passengers.
 
Good write-up! I think you're right about everything you've said.

The SR22 would get closer to the Acclaim if it weren't so wide, but I really appreciate the room--and so do my passengers.

Have you flown a late-model Mooney? I am not a small guy (6'4" and nearly 300#) and the Ovation is one of the most comfortable planes I've ever flown. The interior on the Acclaim, Ovation, Bravo, and Eagle (and I might be missing one or two) should be the same...
 
Of course, the Cirrus salesmen always say there would be no gain, or sometimes they say 2-3kt.

But they would say that :)

I think the gain would be about 15-20kt.

I base that guess on the performance gain of a TB200 versus a TB20 - a very rare case of a virtually identical airframe (except for a wing dihedral difference) available in both fixed (cowled) and retractable versions, respectively. The TB20 outperforms the TB200 by a huge margin, and it still doesn't fly anywhere near as fast as a turbo SR22 at high altitude, where aerodynamics play an even bigger part.

The fuel capacity is not an issue because if you do it properly the wheels fold up under the cockpit.

What Cirrus have done is primarily a marketing exercise - a "simple airplane" which "anybody" can fly instead of driving a car, and if you get into trouble you pull the chute. That approach appeals to a huge number of people, and more importantly their wives :)
 
Have you flown a late-model Mooney? I am not a small guy (6'4" and nearly 300#) and the Ovation is one of the most comfortable planes I've ever flown. The interior on the Acclaim, Ovation, Bravo, and Eagle (and I might be missing one or two) should be the same...

I've never flown a Mooney, at all! I'd like to, though!
 
Of course, the Cirrus salesmen always say there would be no gain, or sometimes they say 2-3kt.

But they would say that :)

I think the gain would be about 15-20kt.

I base that guess on the performance gain of a TB200 versus a TB20 - a very rare case of a virtually identical airframe (except for a wing dihedral difference) available in both fixed (cowled) and retractable versions, respectively. The TB20 outperforms the TB200 by a huge margin, and it still doesn't fly anywhere near as fast as a turbo SR22 at high altitude, where aerodynamics play an even bigger part.

The fuel capacity is not an issue because if you do it properly the wheels fold up under the cockpit.

What Cirrus have done is primarily a marketing exercise - a "simple airplane" which "anybody" can fly instead of driving a car, and if you get into trouble you pull the chute. That approach appeals to a huge number of people, and more importantly their wives :)

That's what I was thinking--that it was mostly a marketing thing. But I doubt you'd get 20 knots with folding gear. The current gear is pretty clean.
 
. . . if such were ever made, what would one project the airspeed gain to be? The gear, with wheel pants, probably doesn't create that much parasite drag. Would you think maybe 10 kts?

The max cruise of a non-retract is 214 kts. If you got it to 225 or 230, that thing would be faaa--aaa-aaast!

(BTW I realize it will never happen, due to retract being against marketing philosophy. But, hey, I can hope! The jet has retract!)


In the lower speed range it's worth 15kts, I'd say at this speed range closer to 20 kts.
 
That aircraft already exists. It's called the Mooney Acclaim.....

Hahaha. Now, I know you're a former Mooney driver, so I would expect you would say that. Then again, I've never met a Mooney driver that didn't love their aircraft. I guess I really need to fly one! :yes:
 
A guy in Germany built two RV-4 that only had one difference; one was retractable. The difference in speed was 4 knots IIRC.
 
There's a big difference between 4 kts and 20 kts. I was thinking maybe 10?
 
Of course, the Cirrus salesmen always say there would be no gain, or sometimes they say 2-3kt.

But they would say that :)

I think the gain would be about 15-20kt.

I base that guess on the performance gain of a TB200 versus a TB20 - a very rare case of a virtually identical airframe (except for a wing dihedral difference) available in both fixed (cowled) and retractable versions, respectively. The TB20 outperforms the TB200 by a huge margin, and it still doesn't fly anywhere near as fast as a turbo SR22 at high altitude, where aerodynamics play an even bigger part.

Not knowing much about the Socata line, I went looking at Wikipedia, and now I'm even more confused. TB20=250hp, TB200=200hp? What's got a turbo, and how much horsepower do the two really have?

Also, while faster speeds do mean that aerodynamics are more important, higher altitudes lead to the exact opposite, since the air is thinner.

The fuel capacity is not an issue because if you do it properly the wheels fold up under the cockpit.

Yeah, but the legs have to go somewhere too, and the stuff that goes where the wheels are going has to go somewhere, too... Of course, chances are the fuel capacity issue can be solved by using space elsewhere in the wings too. I don't think I've ever heard of a plane that gained folding legs but had a lower fuel capacity...



What Cirrus have done is primarily a marketing exercise - a "simple airplane" which "anybody" can fly instead of driving a car, and if you get into trouble you pull the chute. That approach appeals to a huge number of people, and more importantly their wives :)[/QUOTE]
 
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