Required Nav radio(s) for IFR

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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Fearless Tower
91.205 says you need "navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown"

Sounds a bit vague.....Question - does a single Nav radio and CDI meet that requirement (with appropriate VOR check completed)? Obviously it would limit certain approaches, but is it legal in a general sense?



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Absolutely. And with a VFR gps to confirm its working properly, and to be able to use in an emergency, it's not unreasonable.
 
Technically, in some situations, you could be in compliance with the FARs if that's all you have in the radio stack. "Limit certain approaches" would be a nominee for understatement of the year, around here in the rocks "Limit your ability to find an approach at an airport within 400 miles of your intended destination that you can legally fly" would be more descriptive. :)
 
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dell30rb said:
Absolutely. And with a VFR gps to confirm its working properly, and to be able to use in an emergency, it's not unreasonable.
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giggle giggle "confirm it's working properly" :D If somehow I found myself about to launch into the soup with one flaky CDI hooked to a KX170B, I'm declaring emergency to ground control before I take off and flying by the Aera attached to my yoke.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
91.205 says you need "navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown"
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Correct. It was changed from "appropriate for the ground navaids to be used" a few years ago to account for GPS.

Sounds a bit vague.....
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Check 14 CFR 1.1, where they define the term "suitable RNAV system."

Question - does a single Nav radio and CDI meet that requirement (with appropriate VOR check completed)?
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Yes, as long as you're filing and accepting clearances only for routes and procedures which can be flown legally with it. That prevents things like approaches with DUAL VOR REQUIRED and things like that, but it's legal. "Smart" is another story, but clearly you get that.
 
dell30rb said:
Absolutely. And with a VFR gps to confirm its working properly, and to be able to use in an emergency, it's not unreasonable.
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Let's make sure everybody understands that's only to give you confidence and situational awareness, not that you can use your VFR GPS as a comparison to do the 91.177 VOR checks, which you can't even do with an IFR GPS.
 
Its how I brought my first plane home. 3.5 hours in the goo.
 
Ron Levy said:
I did something like that in 1972, in a Cessna 150 with a single nav/comm. Haven't done it since.
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Me either. But it was 6 days after my IR checkride so if there was ever a time I was proficient to that was it. I can fly /U if I need to but I'd rather not have to do it.
 
bartmc said:
giggle giggle "confirm it's working properly" :D If somehow I found myself about to launch into the soup with one flaky CDI hooked to a KX170B, I'm declaring emergency to ground control before I take off and flying by the Aera attached to my yoke.
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Ha or do you use the VOR to confirm the GPS is working properly?

Before i get jumped on, the nav radios in my /u airplane are always tuned, twisted and identified when i'm flying IFR...
 
EdFred said:
Me either. But it was 6 days after my IR checkride so if there was ever a time I was proficient to that was it. I can fly /U if I need to but I'd rather not have to do it.
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2 of the 4 planes in our club are /U. Annoying. That DME is really useful. /A for the 182 and /G for the 172N. I love that 430W.
 
I like flying80's IFR but not without DME. There are still a tone of options for /a planes. /u is pretty limited though
 
aterpster said:
What about the single engine?
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Battery will last ya 30 minutes or so. Also Many pilots (including me) have a vfr gps and handheld. You have a fighting chance.

This reminds me I have been meaning to get a safety pilot and cover up my DG, AI, and TC to see how well i can fly using the garmin aera simulated six pack.
 
All you need to be legal, is a working com radio. declare the emergency and beg for vectors or the ASR

What's legal, isn't always safe, whats safe, isn't always legal.
 
aterpster said:
What about the single engine?
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I know you're just pulling my leg, but in 6000+ hours in single-engine airplanes, I've had a lot more total failures of individual radios than total failures of engines. In addition, it only costs about $4K buy-in plus maybe a dollar an hour to add a nav/comm radio, but it costs tens of thousands more to buy a twin and maybe $50/hr more to operate one when compared to a light single of similar performance. In addition, the second radio makes life easier when everything's working, but a second engine does not. Put it all together, and the cost-benefit tells me to accept the single-engine case but not the single-radio case.
 
Tom-D said:
All you need to be legal, is a working com radio. declare the emergency and beg for vectors or the ASR
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The FAA Counsel does not agree. While they are on record as saying that wouldn't violate 91.205 per se, they did say that you almost certainly would not be able to get a clearance which you could accept (i.e., one not requiring any navigational system), and even if you did get a pure radar vector clearance from ATC, other issues arising might result in such a choice being determined to have been careless/reckless.

What's legal, isn't always safe, whats safe, isn't always legal.
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Amen to that, but sometimes something that doesn't violate one reg will violate another.
 
Ron Levy said:
I did something like that in 1972, in a Cessna 150 with a single nav/comm. Haven't done it since.
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I certainly think that one would need to be very conservative about one's go/no go decisions with that little equipment.
 
Ron Levy said:
I know you're just pulling my leg, but in 6000+ hours in single-engine airplanes, I've had a lot more total failures of individual radios than total failures of engines. In addition, it only costs about $4K buy-in plus maybe a dollar an hour to add a nav/comm radio, but it costs tens of thousands more to buy a twin and maybe $50/hr more to operate one when compared to a light single of similar performance. In addition, the second radio makes life easier when everything's working, but a second engine does not. Put it all together, and the cost-benefit tells me to accept the single-engine case but not the single-radio case.
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In addition, one can avoid flying above low ceilings, and a handheld GPS with a terrain database can get one safely below a high ceiling if the aircraft battery runs down.
 
dell30rb said:
I like flying80's IFR but not without DME. There are still a tone of options for /a planes. /u is pretty limited though
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Yeah the DME really is huge. I won't fly /U in actual unless it's a familiar route I've flown much and I have my iPad with foreflight. Just my personal minimums.
 
I fly /U everywhere but I have a VFR garmin aera. And a handheld with VOR tracking if it came to that.
 
dell30rb said:
I fly /U everywhere but I have a VFR garmin aera. And a handheld with VOR tracking if it came to that.
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I have an air speed indicator, a needle ball, a wet compass, and a com radio, I can do any thing that ATC tells me to do.
 
Tom-D said:
I have an air speed indicator, a needle ball, a wet compass, and a com radio, I can do any thing that ATC tells me to do.
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So if ATC tells you to fly direct to Penn Cove VOR and follow Victor 165, how will you do that?
 
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Palmpilot said:
So if ATC tells you to fly direct to Penn Cove VOR and follow Victor 165, how will you do that?
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They would be aware of my plight and not give any instructions like that.

I've run the No Gyro ASR many times at OKH, and you always talk to ATC, there is no problem saying you have problems with nav gear.
 
I think Richard is referring to the difference between equipment malfunction, and known flight into IMC without the proper equipment.

Sure they will give you vectors in an emergency/equipment failure, but if you do it knowingly, you will have to pay the "piper" upon landing, and they'll attach a "careless and reckless" at the end of everything else.
 
Tom-D said:
They would be aware of my plight and not give any instructions like that.

I've run the No Gyro ASR many times at OKH, and you always talk to ATC, there is no problem saying you have problems with nav gear.
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I'd hope all instrument rated pilots are able to do that in the case of an emergency with active assistance from ATC, but no one (i hope) would knowingly go up in the soup with that equipment, it's not even half of the required MEL for IFR.
 
Tom-D said:
They would be aware of my plight and not give any instructions like that.
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That's what the Counsel was talking about -- they can't always make such allowances, and if you lose comm, you're hosed. Sure, an emergency with your nav gear dead is one thing, but intentionally launching under IFR with no ability to navigate on your own is quite another.

Another example -- going IFR with only an ADF for nav gear. Yes, it's technically in compliance with 91.205(d)(2) if you can get ATC to give you an NDB-NDB route and there's an NDB approach at your destination, but ATC and the NAS just aren't configured for that sort of thing, so other than in an emergency, getting that routing out of ATC is going to be a real problem.
 
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Palmpilot said:
In addition, one can avoid flying above low ceilings, and a handheld GPS with a terrain database can get one safely below a high ceiling if the aircraft battery runs down.
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Or a no-terrain gps and a sectional. Foreflight and a GPS.. or a handheld with VOR tracking capability, as many have. The $400 sporty's unit will even take you down an ILS.
 
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Ron Levy said:
That's what the Counsel was talking about -- they can't always make such allowances, and if you lose comm, you're hosed. Sure, an emergency with your nav gear dead is one thing, but intentionally launching under IFR with no ability to navigate on your own is quite another.
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Any one who would launch into real IFR weather with only Needle ball and airspeed deserves what they get.
 
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Flying h4x0r said:
I'd hope all instrument rated pilots are able to do that in the case of an emergency with active assistance from ATC, but no one (i hope) would knowingly go up in the soup with that equipment, it's not even half of the required MEL for IFR.
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Wasn't the question what's legal?

ASRs are legal, and they only require a Com and transponder but they can be done as a primary target.

Legal, that was the question.
 
Ron Levy said:
so other than in an emergency, getting that routing out of ATC is going to be a real problem.
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When you really need an ASR, you really do have a problem.

I have on occasion asked Whidbey approach for an ADF direct to BVS, for the NDB approach. and got it on my last check ride, had no problems with it.
 
Tom-D said:
Wasn't the question what's legal?

ASRs are legal, and they only require a Com and transponder but they can be done as a primary target.

Legal, that was the question.
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Yes, it was, and the FAA says launching under IFR without any IFR-approved nav gear on board is not legal unless you obtain prior arrangement with ATC for an all-vectors clearance, and that's not likely to happen. And even if you get that clearance, depending on circumstances, the FAA may still consider the idea careless/reckless in violation of 91.13.

The fact that you don't need any nav radios for an ASR approach simply isn't relevant unless your filed destination has an ASR, and even then, the question would be how you'd get from your departure point to the area of that destination without any IFR nav gear.
 
Tom-D said:
I have on occasion asked Whidbey approach for an ADF direct to BVS, for the NDB approach. and got it on my last check ride, had no problems with it.
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I suppose that works when you're already within receiving range of the NDB, and not in a high traffic area. That's not the case in many places. Try getting ATC to give you an all-NDB route from Whidbey to SFO -- good luck on that.
 
Tom-D said:
Wasn't the question what's legal?

ASRs are legal, and they only require a Com and transponder but they can be done as a primary target.

Legal, that was the question.
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My point was that legal IFR requires a few more things than a wet compass, a needle and ball, and airspeed indicator.
 
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