Rental aircraft and logs question

[fiveoboy01]

If I'm a renter, and want to see the logs for an aircraft that I have or want to rent, is that at the discretion of the FBO or is there a regulation that requires them to let me look at them? I'll guess the former. Thanks.

 

[ColoPilot]

I'm not sure of the regulations, but I wouldn't be comfortable renting from somewhere that won't even let you see the logs. I understand they might not want the logs to leave the building or something, but not show them to you????

Also, don't you need the logs to show to the DPE during a flight test?

 

[fiveoboy01]

Correct about the checkride, but I was required to take an instructor to get the logs.

I want to look at the log of a particular aircraft that had a fuel pressure issue requiring myself and the GF to return to the airport. Of course, my request for them to let me know what they found(fuel pump, etc) went unanswered.

I haven't asked them for the logs but I wouldn't be surprised if they balk. Hence my question.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

Nope, it's that latter.

14 CFR 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command. (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

How can you be "directly responsible for" the aircraft if you can't ensure it's airworthy, safe and legal to be flown? In my mind, that covers you regulatory wise. Tell them that if they won't let you see the logs, then you won't give them your money. I would never rent form someone who won't show me the logs because that's pretty shady.

 

[James331]

Nope, it's that latter.

14 CFR 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command. (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

How can you be "directly responsible for" the aircraft if you can't ensure it's airworthy, safe and legal to be flown? In my mind, that covers you regulatory wise. Tell them that if they won't let you see the logs, then you won't give them your money. I would never rent form someone who won't show me the logs because that's pretty shady.

You're a little confused

The FBO has ZERO requirement to show you anything, the renter has the OPTION of renting.

You come to my shop and demand to see the logs, I'll show you the door, you don't come into my place of business and demand anything. I don't have a requirement to do anything, including let you in my front door.

That being said, if you ask nicely and explain that you're flying your family, safety reasons, the children, whatever, I'm sure they will let you take a supervised look at the logs.

You should know this is, strangely or not, a odd request, most renters never ask, so don't be taken back when people at the FBO act slightly confused by your request. You would be well advised to make this request to the manager or CP ahead of time, as the logs might not be on site, or in a maintenance hangar with different hours than the FBO

 

[HighFlyingA380]

Not saying the FBO is required, rather the PIC is required to ensure everything is in order. The only way to truly do so is look at the official logs.

Sad that most renters at your place never ask, and it sounds like would be looked down upon if they do state they need to see them.. When I worked at an FBO, I was always impressed when a renter wanted them; It clearly showed they were interested in safety and taking care of our aircraft.

 

[James331]

Not saying the FBO is required, rather the PIC is required to ensure everything is in order. The only way to truly do so is look at the official logs.

Sad that most renters at your place never ask, and it sounds like would be looked down upon if they do state they need to see them.. When I worked at an FBO, I was always impressed when a renter wanted them; It clearly showed they were interested in safety and taking care of our aircraft.

Not at my place, I'm at best a very part time CFI right now, I mainly just fly non sched single pilot IFR.

However that's not at one FBO, I've been all over the US and Canada, and have quite a few CFI / checkout pilot hours under my belt, most renters don't ask.

And, as I said most FBOs don't have a issue with it, it's just a odd request and they will have to talk to the person who keeps the logs, you can be sure that ain't the girl at the front desk or the CFIs

 

[denverpilot]

You're a little confused



The FBO has ZERO requirement to show you anything, the renter has the OPTION of renting.



You come to my shop and demand to see the logs, I'll show you the door, you don't come into my place of business and demand anything. I don't have a requirement to do anything, including let you in my front door.



That being said, if you ask nicely and explain that you're flying your family, safety reasons, the children, whatever, I'm sure they will let you take a supervised look at the logs.



You should know this is, strangely or not, a odd request, most renters never ask, so don't be taken back when people at the FBO act slightly confused by your request. You would be well advised to make this request to the manager or CP ahead of time, as the logs might not be on site, or in a maintenance hangar with different hours than the FBO

You've just perfectly explained why I hated renting.

Flip side is, no matter what reason I asked to see the MX records of a rental, I'd never spend another dime in any facility that made me ask twice. Too much at stake to play games with an FBO.

I highly recommend the OP find somewhere else to rent from that has aircradt records readily available at any time upon request. It's your life they're screwing with.

 

[James331]

You've just perfectly explained why I hated renting.

Flip side is, no matter what reason I asked to see the MX records of a rental, I'd never spend another dime in any facility that made me ask twice. Too much at stake to play games with an FBO.

I highly recommend the OP find somewhere else to rent from that has aircradt records readily available at any time upon request. It's your life they're screwing with.

It's the difference in attitude, re read what I wrote.

"May I" vs "I'm required by FAR 12345 to see the records, now"

One gets the records, the other gets the door

As I ALSO said most larger FBOs keep their logs with the shop that does the work, the shop may very well have different hours, or the AP may be on a call and can't supervise you at that second.

again re read what I wrote, I think you'll get a lot from it, make an appointment.

 

[murphey]

You've just perfectly explained why I hated renting.

Flip side is, no matter what reason I asked to see the MX records of a rental, I'd never spend another dime in any facility that made me ask twice. Too much at stake to play games with an FBO.

I highly recommend the OP find somewhere else to rent from that has aircradt records readily available at any time upon request. It's your life they're screwing with.

I agree with being able to review the logs but....I wouldn't expect the logs to be kept at the main rental office for security reasons. Unless locked up, for security reasons.

I don't keep my log books in the hangar, bet you don't either. I would expect the maint shop might keep them or, as those of us who work in computer systems, off site. Even the FAA doesn't expect you to have the logs immediately available, true?

However, I would expect the logs to be made available within a reasonable time, say a day or two. And if at the shop that's on the field, in an hour or two, if not sooner.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

..again re read what I wrote, I think you'll get a lot from it, make an appointment.

My renters made an appointment to see the logs when they scheduled the plane. If they were on the schedule, then we would be available to provide the logs if requested. Simple as that. I just don't get why so many act like the logs are naked pictures of their wife...

 

[fiveoboy01]

Logs are in the maintenance department next building over.

If I wasn't clear, I'm not saying I'm going to march in and demand to see them, it was more of a curiosity question. I'd show someone the door if they walked in with that sort of attitude too... but I can't imagine most people would. I don't think they would deny me access if I explain the situation.

Mainly I want to see if anything was done, if not, I won't rent that aircraft again.

I too am confused about why logs need to be so "secret". It's like the maintenance department wants to be isolated from the renter. I get that they are an important item and losing them could be disastrous but still.

 

[Jim Logajan]

If I'm a renter, and want to see the logs for an aircraft that I have or want to rent, is that at the discretion of the FBO or is there a regulation that requires them to let me look at them? I'll guess the former. Thanks.

Very early in my training my CFI took me into the hangar with the filing cabinet containing the logs of all the airplanes I was likely to rent and showed me which drawer they were in. The FBO didn't seem to have any problem with renters coming in to review the maintenance logs any time they needed to. They were not to leave the hangar and you had to put them back of course.

 

[James331]

I agree with being able to review the logs but....I wouldn't expect the logs to be kept at the main rental office for security reasons. Unless locked up, for security reasons.

I don't keep my log books in the hangar, bet you don't either. I would expect the maint shop might keep them or, as those of us who work in computer systems, off site. Even the FAA doesn't expect you to have the logs immediately available, true?

However, I would expect the logs to be made available within a reasonable time, say a day or two. And if at the shop that's on the field, in an hour or two, if not sooner.

Bingo

That's hitting the nail on the head

My renters made an appointment to see the logs when they scheduled the plane. If they were on the schedule, then we would be available to provide the logs if requested. Simple as that. I just don't get why so many act like the logs are naked pictures of their wife...

What a poorly run FBO.

Doubt you own an aircraft based off that statement, and I doubt you understand how much money it will cost an operator if logs go missing, between lost value in the plane, and lost revenue while the plane is brought back to compliance.

This is why the girl making 8 bucks a hour at the front desk, who can't even be responsible for changing her cars oil on time, doesn't handle logs for a fleet of six figure assets, this is why a CFI who just learned the difference between AOA and his A$$ isn't trusted with that responsibility ether.

You make an appointment to rent it's just that, to rent.

You want to see the logs you make an appointment for that.

Those requests go through diffrent channels and are handled by diffrent people.

It's called protecting your assets.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

What a poorly run FBO.

Doubt you own an aircraft based off that statement, and I doubt you understand how much money it will cost an operator if logs go missing, between lost value in the plane, and lost revenue while the plane is brought back to compliance.

This is why the girl making 8 bucks a hour at the front desk, who can't even be responsible for changing her cars oil on time, doesn't handle logs for a fleet of six figure assets, this is why a CFI who just learned the difference between AOA and his A$$ isn't trusted with that responsibility ether.

You make an appointment to rent it's just that, to rent.

You want to see the logs you make an appointment for that.

Those requests go through diffrent channels and are handled by diffrent people.

It's called protecting your assets.

How's it "poorly run" by protecting our assets by properly training our employees to know this stuff??? All of our office personnel were trained as to the value and and importance of the books, and would ensure they were checked out and returned properly. Yup, responsible employees who take their job seriously suck...

 

[Gucci Pilot]

When I worked at an FBO the log books were in a safe in the maintenance hangar. If a renter politely asked for the logbooks I would gladly get them for them to review in a conference room that was within view of my desk. They would then be promptly returned to the safe. It was rare for renters to ask for them who were not going to checkrides, but if they wanted to see them, so be it. The CSR girls that worked during the day could just ask an A&P for the logs(they were definitely not trusted handling them themselves). Most of us line guys were pilots, and knew the importance and value of the logs and were trusted with their care. Can't really throw a rulebook in their face and expect to get great service, but if you ask nicely they should have no problem honoring your request.

 

[Topper]

You're a little confused

The FBO has ZERO requirement to show you anything, the renter has the OPTION of renting.

You come to my shop and demand to see the logs, I'll show you the door, you don't come into my place of business and demand anything. I don't have a requirement to do anything, including let you in my front door.

That being said, if you ask nicely and explain that you're flying your family, safety reasons, the children, whatever, I'm sure they will let you take a supervised look at the logs.

You should know this is, strangely or not, a odd request, most renters never ask, so don't be taken back when people at the FBO act slightly confused by your request. You would be well advised to make this request to the manager or CP ahead of time, as the logs might not be on site, or in a maintenance hangar with different hours than the FBO

May not have been your intention, but you came off as a jerk. I need to ask nicely and explain it is for the safety of my family? This should be a simple business transaction. Maybe most renters don't ask, but I would think it would be expected to happen occasionally.

"Hello, I am N123XY scheduled in 30 minutes, I would like to take a quick look at the logs" "Let me get them for you"

I am glad I don't rent.

Jim

 

[bluerooster]

The folks that I rent from have the last page or two of the logs posted for view by anyone who wants to see them. And you can ask the A&P about anything and he'll be honest and straight forward about it.
They seem to be proud of the way they take care of thier equipement.

 

[James331]

When I worked at an FBO the log books were in a safe in the maintenance hangar. If a renter politely asked for the logbooks I would gladly get them for them to review in a conference room that was within view of my desk. They would then be promptly returned to the safe. It was rare for renters to ask for them who were not going to checkrides, but if they wanted to see them, so be it. The CSR girls that worked during the day could just ask an A&P for the logs(they were definitely not trusted handling them themselves). Most of us line guys were pilots, and knew the importance and value of the logs and were trusted with their care. Can't really throw a rulebook in their face and expect to get great service, but if you ask nicely they should have no problem honoring your request.

Yup.

This seems to be something that makes sense to folks who know the industry.

And be sure to give some notice if you want to look at the logs too.

"Hello, I am N123XY scheduled in 30 minutes, I would like to take a quick look at the logs" "Let me get them for you"

The person with access probably isn't just standing at attention waiting for someone to ask to see the logs. Again it's a uncommon request to see something quite valuable and not too hard to loose, just give a little notice and be nice.

 

[cirrusmx]

we are talking about logs for beat up 30 year old bugsmashers, not logs for a gulfstream were if you loose them (impossible if you are revising them onsite) the plane looses several millions in value. sheesh people, you guys talk about them like some sort of holy grail. If i amr enting from someone and i ask to see the logs and they wont produce them I am pretty much done with that relationship. My life is worth more than some ratty old warrior ,172, etc. if they can not trust me with some logs books i aint trusting them with my life.

 

[schmookeeg]

We used to keep the logs on-hand -- but we owned our maintenance facility, so they were available within walking distance of the front office.

Viewing the logs was treated as a customer right, and not subject to the politeness test of the king-on-duty. No appointment was necessary.

We did not let logs leave our office other than for a checkride, where one of our CFIs was accompanying them.

$0.02

- Mike

 

[Unit74]

Your customer service skills are seriously lacking with that holier than thou attitude. Seriously.

If a renter asks for the logs, it's pretty clear what they are looking to do; ensure an airworthy aircraft is being flown. Why does it matter who they are flying? Does it make you feel better knowing it's "for the children" and place a lower value on the singular life of a solo pilot?

Sheesh......

You're a little confused

The FBO has ZERO requirement to show you anything, the renter has the OPTION of renting.

You come to my shop and demand to see the logs, I'll show you the door, you don't come into my place of business and demand anything. I don't have a requirement to do anything, including let you in my front door.

That being said, if you ask nicely and explain that you're flying your family, safety reasons, the children, whatever, I'm sure they will let you take a supervised look at the logs.

You should know this is, strangely or not, a odd request, most renters never ask, so don't be taken back when people at the FBO act slightly confused by your request. You would be well advised to make this request to the manager or CP ahead of time, as the logs might not be on site, or in a maintenance hangar with different hours than the FBO

 

[MyassisDragon]

FWIW Both times I have needed the Logs (different planes and different FBO's) for my PPL and Instrument check rides I just talked to the Maintenance supervisor and was gladly given them to take with me on my check ride.

And I have 100% confidence they would let me look at them any time, and even chat with me while I was looking at them to answer any questions.

But maybe I just have one of those trustworthy looking mugs.

 

[poadeleted20]

There is no regulation requiring them to provide the logs for your examination. However, there is also no regulation requiring you to rent from them, either, so if they refuse, take your business elsewhere so you as PIC can comply with the regulations applicable to you. But on the third hand, you can't expect them to have all the logs at the rental desk all the time, so if you wish to review the logs, make appropriate arrangements ahead of time (like during the normal work week business hours) to have them available for your review.

 

[jesse]

Also keep in mind that logs are not the end all to finding a safety issue. Reviewing the logs will help you find a regulatory issue but if they are trying to hide something it's not going to be in the logbooks.

When it comes to safety you need to be damn good at preflights and understanding common issues on that type. Good mechanical knowledge helps. For me if I know X mechanic has done mx on it or is comfortable flying it then I have no worries. Knowing who the thorough mechanics are in your area will buy you peace of mind when you see their name in the book.

The worst junk I've flown are flight reviews in privately owned aircraft that have had many many years of annuals and nothing else really in the logbooks generally by some A&P I've never heard of that isn't connected with any reputable shop. Pilot typically only does about 10 hours a year and has been flying for 20 or 30 years. Way way way way worse then any rental plane I've ever seen.

 

[flyingron]

I'd not rent from some place where i couldn't get the logs when I requested.
I'd not rent from some place that EVERY TIME I HAD THE PLANE reserved couldn't tell me when the required inspections were due (or had the logs available for me to determine that myself).

The FAA will not accept, "I assumed the FBO did the required inspections and maintenance" when you get on the hairy side of the enforceent action.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'd not rent from some place where i couldn't get the logs when I requested..

That's unreasonable. You cannot expect an FBO or flight school to have the logs accessible any time you want.

I'd not rent from some place that EVERY TIME I HAD THE PLANE reserved couldn't tell me when the required inspections were due...

That's another story, and a very reasonable expectation. There are many ways they can do that.

The FAA will not accept, "I assumed the FBO did the required inspections and maintenance" when you get on the hairy side of the enforceent action

I agree. But you have to be reasonable about how you go about getting that information.

 

[denverpilot]

I've had plenty of "unreasonable" customers in my biz over the last 20 years. Guess who gets service anyway, unless the vendor wants to "fire the customer"? Some deserve it. Thie request here isn't even close to unreasonable in an activity where the PIC is responsible to know the aircraft is airworthy. Buy a wand/bar scanner and put the resulting PDFs in the rental desk computer. It's really that simple nowadays.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

I've had plenty of "unreasonable" customers in my biz over the last 20 years. Guess who gets service anyway, unless the vendor wants to "fire the customer"? Some deserve it. Thie request here isn't even close to unreasonable in an activity where the PIC is responsible to know the aircraft is airworthy.

I agree telling a renter they aren't welcome to rent anymore just because they demanded the logbooks is a little drastic. Perfectly acceptable request to see the logbooks. There are tactful ways of requesting them besides barging in and demanding to see them. Never had a renter do that, but had them come in with attitudes demanding other absurd requests. I always served them with a smile but they got added to my *censored* list.

I would wait until they came in to dispatch the plane and give them the keys instead of having it all ready to go and sitting in the front seat of the plane.

During the winter when it is blistering cold, I would keep the rental plane in the hangar attached to the FBO, turn on the heaters 30 minutes before I expected them to get there, let them do their pre-flight in there, and pull them out with them in it ready to go so they didn't have to freeze outside.
If you were on my *censored* list...Your plane got pulled out first thing in the morning and put at the far end of the ramp.

People do go out of their way if you are kind. Cop an attitude and you are likely to receive sub-par service.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've had plenty of "unreasonable" customers in my biz over the last 20 years. Guess who gets service anyway, unless the vendor wants to "fire the customer"? Some deserve it. Thie request here isn't even close to unreasonable in an activity where the PIC is responsible to know the aircraft is airworthy. Buy a wand/bar scanner and put the resulting PDFs in the rental desk computer. It's really that simple nowadays.

I don't consider it "unreasonable" to expect to be able to review the aircraft's maintenance records. OTOH, I do consider it unreasonable to walk in on a Sunday afternoon and expect to have those records immediately available on demand without prior request. Those records are too valuable to leave out where anyone can get them any time at all. It is very normal for FBO/flight schools to keep them locked up in the maintenance office for safekeeping, and to have nobody from maintenance on duty other than normal business hours M-F, which is the only time I would expect such records to be available for renter review without prior arrangement. Even the FAA accepts that while pilot and aircraft documents must be immediately available for inspection, aircraft and pilot logbooks must be available only upon "reasonable request".

So be reasonable -- either come in during normal weekday business hours, or call ahead during those hours so the records for that plane can be available when you get there outside those hours. Courtesy really does work both ways.

 

[ColoPilot]

The FAA will not accept, "I assumed the FBO did the required inspections and maintenance" when you get on the hairy side of the enforceent action.

Where I rent, the dispatch software tracks the required inspections and prints out times or dates of those on the dispatch paperwork. I've seen the logs, but I don't check them before every flight, putting my faith in the dispatch software. Does anyone know of a case where the FAA had an enforcement action on a renter who flew an aircraft out of annual/missed inspection when the dispatch paperwork showed the aircraft was OK?

I know the pilot has the final authority to the airworthiness, so I guess at some level I'm taking a risk trusting the dispatch paperwork.

 

[James331]

we are talking about logs for beat up 30 year old bugsmashers, not logs for a gulfstream were if you loose them (impossible if you are revising them onsite) the plane looses several millions in value. sheesh people, you guys talk about them like some sort of holy grail. If i amr enting from someone and i ask to see the logs and they wont produce them I am pretty much done with that relationship. My life is worth more than some ratty old warrior ,172, etc. if they can not trust me with some logs books i aint trusting them with my life.

Well a 30yr old airframe can still be worth well into 6 figures depending, and even a 35k old 172 is a lot of money for a small business, especially if they have 3 of them.

Lets not forget to mention the FBOs with new airframes, 200k or so a piece.

If these planes and logs are so cheap and worthless, than just buy your own plane, after all they are so cheap, maybe you should just buy a dozen.

As the more experienced people have said, its no problem to see the logs, but a little advanced notice and a nice attitude go a long way.

 

[StinkBug]

I think it's funny how this thread went from a very reasonable discussion about how to get a look at the logs for a plane one plans to fly, to some flame fest about demanding things you aren't entitled to.

James331, you come off like an A-hole. Nobody said anything about demanding anything before you did. The question was answered pretty quickly. Make a polite request ahead of time and if they dont wanna show you you have the option to go elsewhere. I dont know how you got the idea that everyone was just barging into places with demands. I also dont know how you get the idea that complying with a simple and reasonable request makes someone a poor business person. Seems to me the only one being unreasonable in this discussion is you.