Removal Of Old Avionics To Make Room For Tablet

[Sinistar]

Hi Everyone - I'm a newbie here!

We recently upsized from a Aeronca to a 182 and we now have electrical...and room!!! The current panel has (from top to bottom):

1. B/K KMA 24H Audio Selector
2. Arnav R50 Loran (!!!no longer functional!!!)
3. B/K KX 155 Nav/Comm
4. B/K KX 155 Nav/Comm
5. Narco DME 890
6. B/K KR86 NDB
7. Old Transponder

the idea is to get rid of the Loran(#2) and NDB(#6) and just shift all items down and make room for a tablet. This would then give us a total of about 5.5" of space at the top of the panel with 4.5" from the equipment removal.

We have been using a Samsung Galaxy Tab 8.4" tablet mounted with suction cup to copilot side window and would like to instead mount it at the top of the panel just under the glare shield. One nice thing about the 182 is there is room (just barely) to do this. The tablet would be removed between flights so I'll have to rig up something easier to install/remove. We have tried both Foreflight on a iPad mini and Garmin Flight on Android and prefer the later for the screen size, speed, excellent internal GPS, etc.

I should note, we are VFR only. My wife is the pilot and still misses the tailwheel I will be getting my license in the spring so I am currently the muscle and ground support.

Our questions are:

1.) Any idea how much it will cost/labor to remove the two items and simply shift them down?

2.) Can I do the removal and shifting of the panel w/o a certification since there would be no installation?

3.) We're used to having radios higher up in the panel, are we crazy to drop them down more to the middle?

4.) Is there any reason to keep the NDB?

5.) Having that nice sized tablet under the deepest part of the glare shield just seems right. Is there anything we're missing here.

- Brad

 

[Brad Z]

Hi Everyone - I'm a newbie here!

We recently upsized from a Aeronca to a 182 and we now have electrical...and room!!! The current panel has (from top to bottom):

1. B/K KMA 24H Audio Selector
2. Arnav R50 Loran (!!!no longer functional!!!)
3. B/K KX 155 Nav/Comm
4. B/K KX 155 Nav/Comm
5. Narco DME 890
6. B/K KR86 NDB
7. Old Transponder

the idea is to get rid of the Loran(#2) and NDB(#6) and just shift all items down and make room for a tablet. This would then give us a total of about 5.5" of space at the top of the panel with 4.5" from the equipment removal.

We have been using a Samsung Galaxy Tab 8.4" tablet mounted with suction cup to copilot side window and would like to instead mount it at the top of the panel just under the glare shield. One nice thing about the 182 is there is room (just barely) to do this. The tablet would be removed between flights so I'll have to rig up something easier to install/remove. We have tried both Foreflight on a iPad mini and Garmin Flight on Android and prefer the later for the screen size, speed, excellent internal GPS, etc.

I should note, we are VFR only. My wife is the pilot and still misses the tailwheel I will be getting my license in the spring so I am currently the muscle and ground support.

Our questions are:

1.) Any idea how much it will cost/labor to remove the two items and simply shift them down?

2.) Can I do the removal and shifting of the panel w/o a certification since there would be no installation?

3.) We're used to having radios higher up in the panel, are we crazy to drop them down more to the middle?

4.) Is there any reason to keep the NDB?

5.) Having that nice sized tablet under the deepest part of the glare shield just seems right. Is there anything we're missing here.

- Brad

1) There's no good cost rule of thumb , in my experience. It can vary greatly. If it's a simple job and there's plenty of wire to work with, figure three hours of shop time. If they have to build up a new harness to replace the existing ones, more...

2)You can pull radios in and out of a bracket. Moving radios requires a mechanic to return to service. You might be able to assist, depending on your relationship.

3) You may want to consider how things would work with the tablet not installed. Personally it would not be my first choice.

4) No.

5) Make sure your installation is flexible to accommodate improvements to hardware. Things change very quickly.

Brad Z

 

[bnt83]

My first glancing question is how worn out are the tabs/brackets/tracks that the radios mount to?

Some of these are ridiculously shot, full of holes from multiple radio replacements and relocation, and need to be replaced. Some are sorta replaceable. Others just need to be cutout and something different done.

http://www.radiorax.com/

Also, do you want antennas removed? Unused wiring and coax removed?

 

[bnt83]

5) Will the tablet's GPS work reliably in proposed location?

 

[Tom-D]

Hi Everyone - I'm a newbie here!

We recently upsized from a Aeronca to a 182 and we now have electrical...and room!!! The current panel has (from top to bottom):

1. B/K KMA 24H Audio Selector
2. Arnav R50 Loran (!!!no longer functional!!!)
3. B/K KX 155 Nav/Comm
4. B/K KX 155 Nav/Comm
5. Narco DME 890
6. B/K KR86 NDB
7. Old Transponder

the idea is to get rid of the Loran(#2) and NDB(#6) and just shift all items down and make room for a tablet. This would then give us a total of about 5.5" of space at the top of the panel with 4.5" from the equipment removal.

We have been using a Samsung Galaxy Tab 8.4" tablet mounted with suction cup to copilot side window and would like to instead mount it at the top of the panel just under the glare shield. One nice thing about the 182 is there is room (just barely) to do this. The tablet would be removed between flights so I'll have to rig up something easier to install/remove. We have tried both Foreflight on a iPad mini and Garmin Flight on Android and prefer the later for the screen size, speed, excellent internal GPS, etc.

I should note, we are VFR only. My wife is the pilot and still misses the tailwheel I will be getting my license in the spring so I am currently the muscle and ground support.

Our questions are:

1.) Any idea how much it will cost/labor to remove the two items and simply shift them down?

2.) Can I do the removal and shifting of the panel w/o a certification since there would be no installation?

3.) We're used to having radios higher up in the panel, are we crazy to drop them down more to the middle?

4.) Is there any reason to keep the NDB?

5.) Having that nice sized tablet under the deepest part of the glare shield just seems right. Is there anything we're missing here.

- Brad

Welcome to POA, I am a A&P-IA that suggest that you contact an A&P, near you that will allow your working under their supervision, and do all the work your self.
There is nothing stopping you from removing all the stuff yourself. there is no regulation stating who can disassemble anything.

My suggestion is simple, remove it all, and the associated harnesses, and antennas, plug all the antenna holes.
then add 1 new era com. 1 new ADSB compliant Transponder, then blank off the entire unused portion of the radio rack. Which allows plenty space for the iPad.
These are the newest hot topic on the radio market

http://www.funkwerk-usa.com

Here is what one of my customers did. he simply moved stuff down and added a docking station.

 

[Sinistar]

Thanks for all the input so far!

Regarding the tablet GPS working under the glare shield - excellent question. My Galaxy S4 GPS works really good in the plane but did drop out a few times when I held it up there. I then held our main Galaxy Tablet up there for about 3 minutes and it appeared to still work okay. However, we will most likely get the GDL39 in which case the tablet getting GPS would be less of an issue plus we would have wx and some redundancy.

Regarding the existing mounting hardware. I guess I won't know until we get in there the first time. I have complete logs for the plane. Although it is 44yrs old, it doesn't even have 1900hrs on it yet. I can tell from the weight and balance that one major panel update took place to replace the Cessna radios and audio control with the King equipment. And there was a second change to install the Loran or the DME. So it is possible that there hasn't been much done in that area.

I am really hoping I can work with the A&P / IA. I want to learn as much as I can. If it shaves off some labor, that is fine by me but I really want know everything I can about or baby.

When it comes to future panel work, I guess our short term goal is to get the largest (practical) tablet mounted in the panel. Right now that would be a iPad mini or 8.4"Android. After that we would like GDL39 so we have second GPS source and wx in the cockpit via ADS-B In. After that we could happily fly and not change anything else. But we will get ADS-B Out compliant as we do fly in or pass thru some controlled space. For this we were thinking of something like the newer Garmin Transponder wit the ADS-B Out squitter. And we do want to get a engine analyzer fairly soon as we bought it with all new top end and would be nice how its running, use for leaning etc.

 

[denverpilot]

Thoughts in random order:
- I wouldn't mount a tablet, ever. RAM dual-suction cup mount to a side window and forget about it, just like you were doing.
- If you ever do an IFR panel upgrade and add an IFR GPS, you'll be required to put any of the modern moving map display panel GPS's at the top or slightly below it (audio panel above is about it), for the rules on it being "in pilot's line of sight".
- Any time you touch the stack, as in "move things around" it's going to run you lots of money. Move stuff as little as possible and only once if possible. In other words, figure out what you're doing about ADS-B now... and then move it all at once. You can't move stuff without assistance. You can only pull radios out of trays designed to have them removed and replace into the tray. If the tray has to move, you're paying the avionics shop.
- We pulled our ADF when it failed a few years ago.

 

[bnt83]

Airgizmo Dock & portables --My airplane came with a 296 mounted in the radio stack, with a dedicated external fuselage skin mounted antenna and powed off the avionics bus through a dedicated breaker. I has never lost GPS signal in this configuration. I keep eyeballing the the new garmin area 660 which could acts similar as a PFD, wirelessly with a GTX345, displaying ADS-B in products. The gizmo dock is the same size as the 296 doc so it should fit. I'd hope the fastener locations match. I would need to make a small coax adapter to go from a BNC to SMX(?). It would almost be like having another GTN650 screen for ~$1200.


I don't think I'd mount a tablet as described in this thread but there are other portable devices that I do like and would mount.



If you are still interested in moving stuff around in your 182 take some pictures of what you have now, write an email and describe in detail what you want to do, putting "RFQ Panel Rearranging" or similar in the subject line and email prospective shops, or send it to you mechanic and ask if you could assist with the changes.

 

[bgmac]

In an effort to move from NON GPS to WASS GPS I have been working on upgrading my panel. I don't have deep pockets, but was about to scout around and find some deals. Not only with equipment, but labor as well. I was able to sell all my equipment that I removed on ebay and cost my cost quite a bit. Here is a before and after.

 

[Briar Rabbit]

Remove the adf and the rnav is a good idea but leave the space in the radio column for future avionics. Someday you will want a new piece of equipment mounted in the rack.

If you have a free 3 1/8" space in your instrument cluster left of the radio stack instal a EDM 900 or EI CGR30, this allows you to free up virtually every space on the right side of the radio rack on most airplanes. My mechanic recommended the EDM products.

Mount a fixed ram ball on the right side of the rack and then you can choose a larger tablet or I-Pad and position it how you want it. Easy to remove, can be tilted as you want it, better cooling, easier to replace with other equipment as technology changes, better gps reception. You can leave your right side Gage's except for the old fuel Gage's and legally cover them up with the tablet. This also allows some back up if the EDM develops a problem.

 

[Sinistar]

There was another thread where I discussed an issue after having this done. Basically, they remove the old equipment and bumped everything down two spots. Nice But our intercom stopped working The A&P felt pretty bad, tried really, really hard to figure it out and couldn't. About 2 months later we got it into the Avionics shop. They found the problem right away. A small piece of metal (inside the KMA-24-71) was shorting out the intercom circuit. He said the A&P and myself didn't stand a chance. I probably should have pulled it myself but everything else (both radio's, nav's, DME, etc) were all working so wanted to have radios since we were flying it into a towered airport. Overall, the equipment move and repair were not the expensive.

Regarding the change: We both love it. After seeing your response, I mentioned we could use the space for a engine analyzer (our next planned purchase) and we both agreed that the tablet on top of the stack tucked under the glare shield is way, way to handy to give up for now.

After the move, there is a now blank panel almost 5" tall at the top of the stack. We have a ram tablet holder permanently attached to that blank aluminum panel (4 screws). The ram mount is spring loaded on one side so you can install/remove the tablet with one hand. The current mount fits the older 8.4" Android, all iPam Mini's and the latest 8" Galaxy Tab (found one used for $220!). That new tablet blows away all the iPad Mini's and can render all the Garmin VFR displays and overlays as well as standard sectionals so fast its crazy. And it is bright!!!

We have zero need to tilt it as both pilot and copilot can see it clearly.

We had it on the co-pilot window for about 3 months before this change (same tablet mount on a RAM suction cup)- the new way is much better and seems a bit more "installed", doesn't shake around nearly as much and so far has never overheated. Actually, we saved the suction cup mount and my daughter mounts her iPad mini on the rear side window and either watches a movie or follows along on a second copy of the Pilot software. We use a Garmin Glo for GPS to the iPad and Android (more accurate and faster update than the Android internal GPS).

Regarding engine analyzer. As much as I would love to go with a primary replacement (EDM 900) I think we will be going with the 830 instead. Partly, the 900 is much more expensive (seems be $8K vs $4K ???) Also, if there is a loss of electrical on the 900 you would not have MP, RPM, Oil Pressure, etc. And its my understanding the 830 series you can set your own alarms vs 900 series they are fixed to the mfg levels. We have one space left on the pilot side (below a VOR) and plenty of space on the co-pilot side. The plan is to put the money saved going with the 830 towards the ADS-B out mandate.

 

[Sinistar]

Here is a shot taken this winter on a clear, bright day with heavy snow cover. The tablet in the picture is the older 8.4" set to ~80% of maximum brightness. The newer tablet is about 1" narrower and about 1/2" taller so takes 1" less space on the left. This picture gives you the impression that gauges are masked by the tablet but from the pilots side all gauges are 100% visible. Its not pretty, but it sure works nice. I think the funky colors on the tablet are due to a circular polarizer on the camera lens. I had mocked it up in advance using photoshop so we knew what we were getting and that there would be no obstructions.

 

[Briar Rabbit]

Here is a shot taken this winter on a clear, bright day with heavy snow cover. The tablet in the picture is the older 8.4" set to ~80% of maximum brightness. The newer tablet is about 1" narrower and about 1/2" taller so takes 1" less space on the left. This picture gives you the impression that gauges are masked by the tablet but from the pilots side all gauges are 100% visible. Its not pretty, but it sure works nice. I think the funky colors on the tablet are due to a circular polarizer on the camera lens. I had mocked it up in advance using photoshop so we knew what we were getting and that there would be no obstructions.
View attachment 52301

I believe we paid $3,500 for our 900 ordered at Oshkosh last summer. Usually there are good deals during Sun-N-Fun too(next week I think). It cost about $2,000 for install, same amount for a 830. We retained our old MP, tach and fuel flow. Only thing we had to remove was fuel Gauges. The unit was mounted in the same opening available as in your panel and is easier to monitor during IFR than the old locations on the right side.

 

[James331]

Just a thought.

The NDB can make a nice little lightning strike detector, not sure if that justified its weight or power drain, but there is that.

I'd just keep the tablet on your lap, never understood why people panel mount them, I have a iPad mini which I sometimes bring along for VFR stuff, it sits on my lap or in a side pocket, easier to work and view and mounting a tablet on a panel, meh

As for the work, that depends on your skills and your AP, I'm sure if you have the skills and your AP has the trust in said skills, you could do most of the work.

 

[Timbeck2]

Brian what program is running on the tablet in your picture? I don't think its Foreflight but if it is I don't know how to get the bottom half of your picture and I have the Pro version.

 

[Dana]

Couple of thoughts: If (quite likely) you have GPS reception problems with the tablet mounted under the glareshield, you can get a small Bluetooth GPS that you can mount nearly anywhere which will provide the information to the tablet. If you use a non 3G iPad, you will have to do this as those don't have GPS built in.

Besides Garmin Pilot, look at Avare for Android. I've been using it for awhile now. The interface is a bit funky, but easy when you get used to it and it's completely free.

 

[bnt83]

Brian what program is running on the tablet in your picture? I don't think its Foreflight but if it is I don't know how to get the bottom half of your picture and I have the Pro version.

Looks like Garmin Pilot to me, not positive.

 

[arkvet]

To some degree I'm going down a similar path as the OP. I have a pretty solid panel already but am about to upgrade my GNS 530W with an Avidyne IFD 550. At the same time I will be adding Avidyne transponders (In/out). I'm going with the remote mount transponder which frees up quite a bit of panel space and gives me room to *mount* an ipad on the panel.

However, I likely won't do an Airgizmo or comparable mount. Although there are some aesthetic benefits by having the tablet semi-flush mounted the trade off is lack of versatility and being stuck with a particular model. My plan is to plan for where I would like the ipad located and simply "blank" that space in the panel. The rest is easy. Add a Mygoflight stud or slip mount to the panel. These mounts are pricier than RAM mounts but are so much better. I already have the yoke mount and my only regret is not getting it sooner. By using a mount like this I can change the position of the I-pad to pretty much anywhere. If I have a copilot with me I can swing the Ipad front and center behind their Yoke. If I decide I want my Ipad pro 9.7 on the panel instead of my mini 3 it's as easy as removing the mini and hanging the Pro. No dated mount within the panel.

And for the record I DO NOT work for mygoflight. I've bought one of their products and am extremely pleased. They seem expensive initially but compared to permanent panel changes by an avionics shop... they are relatively cheap.

http://www.mygoflight.com/sport-mount-flex-clip/ This mount combined with the Universal Sport mount tablet holder will be on my panel.

 

[Ravioli]

Two thoughts:

Sinistar is a cool video game.
Keep the old avionics and leave the tablet at home. Flying isn't a video game.

 

[dell30rb]

Looks like Garmin Pilot to me, not positive.

Correct, Garmin Pilot.

I would have no problem with mounting an ipad mini or the like on the panel if you had room. The only suggestion I have for the OP is maybe don't spend any money on the panel until you are ready to add Ads-B and an IFR GPS. If you and your wife are both pilots and like to travel you will wind up getting the instrument rating eventually.

Shuffling your old avionics around and adding an ipad mount won't add anything to the value of the plane. But installing ADS-B and an IFR gps definitely will raise the value of your airplane, so there's that.

 

[dell30rb]

Two thoughts:

Sinistar is a cool video game.
Keep the old avionics and leave the tablet at home. Flying isn't a video game.

Tablets are great. I mean I don't use one if I am farting around in a cub but for any sort of traveling you won't find me without it. I'm happy playing my video game of travel around the country in small aircraft.

 

[cgrab]

I plan to do something similar although I plan to put a Flightline radio into one of the navhead holes that I'll remove with the KX-170's and have one navhead with my stack radio. I also plan to build an aluminum box with a lid on which I will mount my Galaxy Tab. I will put USB power ports inside with a separate breaker to power the tablet and charge my phone. I also plan an audio in port for the audio panel. My final stack will be Stratus ESG, KX-155 (probably), and GX-55 GPS. The audio panel and second radio are in round holes in the panel. I get about nine inches of glove box with a top hinge cover to mount my tablet.

 

[Sinistar]

Sinister is a cool game...have one down in the basement

I appreciate the comments regarding our panel change effecting the value of the plane....but in our case this would be the least important reason against making the change (which already did and really like). So, right now we have less than $500 total into the change, mostly due to a intercom failure where debris in the intercom moved around and shorted a circuit. Add $225 for a tablet and $100 for a backup GLO. Still way under $1000 and now we have a great VFR setup with a fast, bright, large display. We're not into IFR. If we were to sell the 182 tomorrow we'd be out $500. How about the owner who spends $15k, mainly to have a nice IFR setup...but also to have a high resale value...umm...I think that owners gonna be out at least $5k when the plane sells.

We bought the 182 to keep it, not retain high resale value. We will add a engine analyzer one day and then comply with ADS-B out by 2020. After that our money will go towards the interior and then probably a prop overhaul.