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Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Palmpilot, Sep 30, 2021.
And as I recall, at least one of them had to be dragged up to standard on checkrides more than once.
Got a better idea. Drop the ageism.
Yup, you are paying the wage premium for experience/knowledge gained over that time, not for the "amount of work" being performed. While the guys flying the pond hopping routes may not have many critical phases of flight to deal with, they are operating more complex machinery and have (hopefully) seen enough varied situations that the bag of experience gained over the years will help them avert a disaster. Not always the case, but that's why pay goes up so much for the crews that may be putting the least amount of time in the seat.
The fatigue was self-induced. The F/O commuted coast-to-coast on a red-eye the night before and neither pilot had a crash pad or bought a hotel room to sleep prior to the trip. They both tried to sleep in the crew room at the airport.
They’re not paid enough to afford hotels, that should be the responsibility of the airline. If I have to travel for work, the hotel is paid for, should be the same for pilots.
It’s not really the same. An equivalent would be your office is in Atlanta but you live in New York. Would you expect your company to pay for your hotel while you work a 5 day work week? That’s one of the benefits of the airlines. You can live where you want. Some airlines have negotiated commuter hotels but they had to give the company something in return.
They were based in Newark. It was there choice to live somewhere other than the greater Newark area. Is your employer going to pay your commuting expenses if you choose to live somewhere other than where you are based?
Some regionals are now paying for hotels for commuters.
How expensive is it to live in Newark? Would you move across the country anyway for a job that paid $20,000/year? If not, would you be able to afford your own commuting expenses?
Nobody lives in Newark. You don't have to. Probably the best place for EWR-based pilots is eastern Pennsylvania. I was based in EWR for nearly three years. I rented a crash pad for $185/mo. Many times I commuted to EWR in the morning, took a nap at the crashpad, and showed up for work well-rested that evening.
Living in Seattle, while being a junior EWR-based pilot, is not a good plan. Living in Seattle and applying to an airline that has only east coast bases is not a good plan.
Sleeping in the crew room is not a good plan.
I believe one of them was also sick.
Come sign-in time, if you aren't fit for duty then you don't fly.
How many guys were you sharing the crash pad with?
Often, nobody. Sometimes one or two others. If it was much more than that, I'd just buy a hotel room. I think I did that twice in 2-1/2 years. It was a two-room suite at the Comfort Inn with six beds (three bunk beds) in the bedroom.
Now I commute to Chicago but don't use a crashpad. I buy a hotel room when I need one in ORD. I prefer the O'Hare Hilton as I can walk to and from the terminal. $104.49 out the door with the airline discount. I've averaged 1.5 nights per month since December 2017.
A young, single pilot, with no ties to a city other than their domicile, can easily get a couple of roommates to share a two or three bedroom apartment full time. That used to be normal for young adults starting out, especially in cities.
So you had the potential of having up to five roomies at anyone time. Can you see where that might not be a great option for a women? Even today, it might be a bit of a challenge to find five other women to split the cost of a crash pad. 25 years ago, it was out of the question.
The female pilots would have been in a female crashpad. Plenty of those around, with all of the female flight attendants who are earning much less than pilots. There were female crashpads at the same Contry Inn & Suites that I used in EWR. Lots of others, too.
So there I was... at my crash pad in Kew Gardens...
One morning I casually strolled out to start some coffee, in me whitey tighties, only to be pleasantly surprised someone had already started some.
The someone was a couple of very nice ladies sitting quietly and politely behind me at the table.
Apparently it was coed.... Hmmm... Well, too late for modesty, I sat and enjoyed some coffee with them, and then excused myself to go shower.
Life doesn’t really have to be all that dramatic!!
Then the fun started.
Depends on the woman. I know some women who would love that option.
My wife and I did. However, I don't recommend the way we got the down payment. There are better ways than an insurance payout after getting hit on a motorcycle by a car running a stop sign.
I thought you were working that direction last I remember. Change of plans?
They were only required to teach stall awareness then.
Now they are required to teach AOA, upset recovery, deep stall, and more thanks to the Air France and Colgan accident.
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Yea, got my hours in right when covid hit. Got tired of waiting, bought a house, now cant afford to. haha
Actually stalls were taught as awareness, but the recovery was taught as a precision maneuver.
For instance, on the turning departure stall it was configure flaps for TO, slow to flap speed + 20kts, set thrust and hold altitude until stick shaker. At stick shaker apply GA thrust, level wings and maintain altitude and clean up to flaps zero.
The problem was combining stall awareness and a maneuver which stated no altitude loss or gain.
Today it’s stall awareness and recovery as it should be. Thankfully most training programs have moved into AQP which is even better.
The airline safety record for the US reflects that.
The accidents that led to this regulation were indeed pilot error. A combination of poor training/experience and fatigue issues because of the near indentured servitude nature of being a regional pilot. I alluded to the crash that was the straw that broke the camel's back on this: Colgan 3407. Colgan has always been a scary carrier (back in the day, they had a few crashes because the airline admonished the pilots to not "tanker fuel" and they had at least one exhaustion as a result).
I reckon it depends on the carrier and the domicile. Not sure one can comfortably count on that unless one can be assured when hiring on of getting assigned one of the larger domiciles. At any rate, that was a small part of my calculus when I decided to eschew the airline option. I don't regret the choice. I have had an enjoyable and varied career. It is just one example of the airline industries efforts to pad their bottom line in the past, have consequences for their ability to fill the pilot seats now.
Carrier doesn't matter, only domicile. I've been in this industry since 1990 and have never heard of female pilots or flight attendants having trouble finding crashpads. If there's an airline domicile in the city, there will be crashpads, often run by airline crewmembers. There will be notices on the bulletin boards in the crew rooms advertising availability as well as web sites that will help you find one. They aren't difficult to find.
Yes, you are correct in that she chose to do those things, chose to sleep in the crew room, and chose to fly sick. But those things did not happen in a vacuum. There is a bigger picture to be considered.
If a bad pilot crashes a plane, do you blame the bad pilot, or the airline for hiring bad pilots? Seems like those things do not have to be mutually exclusive.
The fast majority of airline pilots manage to show up for work rested, well, and fit for duty. If they are not, it is their personal responsibility, and a regulatory requirement, that they remove themselves from flying status until they are fit for duty.
..okay, but do you see how the cards are skillfully stacked against the pilot:
The airline gets to do two things.. pay a garbage salary and wash their hands of an accident when a pilot actually tries to push themselves to earn that elusive higher income
I have ZERO sympathy of the airlines facing a shortage. My post was TLDR; so here: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-10-19/airlines-bailout-coronavirus-stimulus-bill
No. Every job has its challenges. Many have challengers much worse than what we face as airline pilots. I could never do the extremely long (24hr+) shifts that Doctors endure in residency, for example.
In 31 years, and six airlines, as an airline pilot I have never attempted to get required sleep in a crew room nor have I been pressured by circumstance to do so. Basing and commuting have always been a major factor in deciding to which airlines I would apply. I've called off a trip for fatigue maybe three times in three decades. In each case, it was unexpected schedule changes and extensions that derailed my plan for being adequately rested.
The plan of commuting coast-to-coast on overnight cargo flights followed by a nap in a recliner in the crew room was fatally flawed. Nobody forced her to do that. Nobody forced her to fly sick.
Those are true statements, but what point are you trying to make? It seems like you are arguing against a straw man that claims she was an innocent blameless victim, I don't think anyone is saying that.
Once again, in true PoA style, non airline pilots and those who have never worked in the industry want to preach to those that are actually there.
It is rare but sometimes crash pads don’t exist.
You misspelled "volunteered to risk his life serving his country."
They certainly existed in, and around, the EWR airport area.
I'm not sure where you've found that aircrews are based but no crashpads exist, but, in such a case, there will be notes on the crew room bulletin board looking for roommates to split a house or apartment. If there is a crew base, there will be crewmembers in need of accommodations.
As I said it’s rare but it does exist. I’m glad you never had to deal with those circumstances in your career. It blows.
Good information for the OP. For me, it is a bit too late as I am seriously close to the mandatory retirement age and quite happy with out my career turned out. Money was the main reason I didn't go to the airlines earlier in my career. You could say that maybe I didn't want it badly enough, and you would probably be right. But whatever, I am one seat that the airline had to fill some other way. I am not alone. So I have no sympathy for them when they can't find enough pilots now.
Plenty of crash pads around EWR but my wife always had a small apartment and a couple of roommates that subsidized the cost when she was based there…more expensive but no issue even for a new hire…
You of course raise a very good point. My apologies. Still, unless one undertook that route they or someone in their family shelled out a colossal amount of money. Seems like a lot to make what you could get shuffling packages at Amazon.
Keep in mind that, as previously stated, very few people actually shell out for 1500 hours’ flying time for an airline job. 300 hours seems to be typical among the people I know.