Recreational Certificate questions

[GCA319]

I have a Student who just soloed who was going for the Sport, but has since decided on the Recreational Certificate instead (makes sense to me too. He can easily get a medical and with some additional training after the checkride to take care of the 50 nm limitation he'll be able to have the same privileges as a Sport pilot, but be able to fly/rent a wider range of airplanes.), but given the fact that almost nobody chooses this option there are a few things I can't find clear answers on:

-Is it true that the Private Written can be used towards the Recreational (I know there is also a Recreational written) and if it can be, can it be used if he decides to upgrade to a Private within 2 years or would he have to take it again?
-Regarding the 2 hours of "XC training" required by 61.99(a)(1)...The PTS and 61.97 (b)(4) only mention Pilotage,so I'm assuming that's all I have to do? No dead reckoning?

 

[John221us]

I don't get it. Why wouldn't he just put in a few extra hours and get the Private? Most people need more time to meet the PTS standards anyway. There are some significant limitations on the Recreational. Why pay for two check rides?

 

[GCA319]

I don't get it. Why wouldn't he just put in a few extra hours and get the Private? Most people need more time to meet the PTS standards anyway. There are some significant limitations on the Recreational. Why pay for two check rides?

There's actually quite a bit more time that he would have to get for the private vs. the recreational. The Recreational requires 3 hours of solo vs. 10, only a small amount of dual cross country,no solo cross country, no instrument, and no night. His thinking is to get the Recreational and see how it works for him. This will likely be a 40-45 hour project vs. the 60-65 hour project that I estimate the Private to be for the average student.

 

[GCA319]

I don't get it. Why wouldn't he just put in a few extra hours and get the Private? Most people need more time to meet the PTS standards anyway. There are some significant limitations on the Recreational. Why pay for two check rides?

Also, the limitations that affect what a good portion of the fair weather pilot does can be easily removed via endorsement (towered fields and the ability to go more than 50 nm from the field in which they trained). The three that I see as most cumbersome to the same fair weather flyer are the 180 HP limitation, 10,000 foot limitation, and one passenger only limitation.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Recreational pilots are an elite club, fighter pilots are plentiful in comparison.

 

[weilke]

The three that I see as most cumbersome to the same fair weather flyer are the 180 HP limitation, 10,000 foot limitation, and one passenger only limitation.

I had a Warrior for a while. I can remember one time that I had someone in the back seat and getting it higher than 10k feet required patience. For someone truly recreational not really much of a restriction. The recreational cert would be a lot more popular with a drivers license medical.

 

[nosehair]

no, the Private written cannot be used for the Rec. And yes, pilotage is the most basic of navigation skills, and the Sport and Rec training is supposed to emphasize basic stick and rudder and pilotage skills. Never mind all the screaming for your student to "quickly advance" to Private. IMHO opinion, the experience and privileges of the Private cert. is not achievable in the minimum of 40 hours. It used to be, 40 years ago,
but not now.

 

[flyingron]

The problem is the part that usually takes people over the regulatory minimums (learning to land) has to be done for any class of license. Doing a little XC work to get the private doesn't add much (and is fun). The recreational was a crashing failure. Not too many were EVER issued (less than 200 I believe). Now if they had dropped the medical requirement like they did for sport pilot, it might have done better.

 

[poadeleted20]

-Is it true that the Private Written can be used towards the Recreational

Yes, it is. From the Examiner's Handbook:

(1) The applicant must present a recreational pilot knowledge test report. However, a private pilot knowledge test report may be used in lieu of the recreational pilot knowledge test.
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Note: [/FONT][/FONT]For the record, this is the only situation where the FAA has specifically allowed for a higher pilot certification level knowledge test to be used instead of the appropriate knowledge test. The reason for this policy is because the FAA made a determination that people who seek the recreational pilot certificate normally wait further on into their training to decide whether to seek a recreational pilot certificate or a private pilot certificate. Furthermore, the FAA determined that the private pilot knowledge test covers all of the recreational pilot knowledge test subject areas.

...and if it can be, can it be used if he decides to upgrade to a Private within 2 years or would he have to take it again?

As long as the PP practical test is taken within 24 calendar months after the PP written was passed, the PP written test result remains valid for that PP practical test.

-Regarding the 2 hours of "XC training" required by 61.99(a)(1)...The PTS and 61.97 (b)(4) only mention Pilotage,so I'm assuming that's all I have to do? No dead reckoning?

That's what it says.

(4) Use of aeronautical charts for VFR navigation using pilotage with the aid of a magnetic compass;

VII. AREA OF OPERATION: NAVIGATION​

A. TASK: PILOTAGE​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]

REFERENCE(S): FAA-8083-25.​

[/FONT][/FONT]

Objective.​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]To determine that the applicant: [/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to pilotage.​

2. Follows the preplanned course by visual reference to landmarks, with the aid of a magnetic compass.​

3. Identifies landmarks by relating surface features to chart symbols.​

4. Verifies the airplane’s position within three (3) nautical miles of the flight-planned route.​

5. Maintains the appropriate altitude, ±200 feet and headings, ±15°.​

[/FONT][/FONT]

B. TASK: DIVERSION (ASEL AND ASES)​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]

REFERENCE(S): FAA-H-8083-25; AIM.​

[/FONT][/FONT]

Objective.​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]To determine that the applicant: [/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to diversion.​

2. Selects an appropriate alternate airport and route.​

3. Makes a reasonable estimate of heading, and fuel consumption to the alternate airport.​

4. Maintains the appropriate altitude, ±200 feet and heading, ±15°.​

[/FONT][/FONT]

C. TASK: LOST PROCEDURES (ASEL AND ASES)​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]

REFERENCE(S): FAA-H-8083-25; AIM.​

[/FONT][/FONT]

Objective.​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]To determine that the applicant: [/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to lost procedures.​

2. Selects an appropriate course of action.​

3. Maintains an appropriate heading and climbs, if necessary.​

4. Identifies prominent landmarks.​

5. Plans a precautionary landing if deteriorating weather and/or fuel exhaustion is impending.​

[/FONT][/FONT]

However, to pass the PP written, as you appear to be planning to do, you'll have to learn DR navigation including time/speed/distance and wind corrections just like a PP trainee/applicant. Further, to have that 50nm XC limitation removed, a Rec Pilot must learn and demonstrate the ability to conduct DR nav:

(c) A person who holds a recreational pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft on a flight that exceeds 50 nautical miles from the departure airport, provided that person has--
(1) Received ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on the cross-country training requirements of subpart E of this part that apply to the aircraft rating held;
(2) Been found proficient in cross-country flying; and
(3) Received from an authorized instructor a logbook endorsement, which is carried on the person's possession in the aircraft, that certifies the person has received and been found proficient in the cross-country training requirements of subpart E of this part that apply to the aircraft rating held.

Note that Subpart E is the Private Pilot subpart, and that includes:

(4) Use of aeronautical charts for VFR navigation using pilotage, dead reckoning, and navigation systems

That means the Rec Pilot will have to demonstrate proficiency on DR and some navigation system (like VOR or GPS) before receiving that 61.101(c) endorsement.

 

[poadeleted20]

no, the Private written cannot be used for the Rec.

I thought so, too, but researched it before answering that it can be so used.

 

[ja_user]

I still don't understand why he wouldn't just pass the PP... There is a reason the Recreational pilot numbers are so low. Does he not think he would benefit by a little hood time, the night experience and a little more XC? Sure it adds up a little, 10 hours or so if you plan your time wisely.. But hopefully he isn't just going to get a cert and stop flying anyway...

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I didn't think getting a Recreational was even possible anymore.

 

[mcmanigle]

As long as the PP practical test is taken within 24 calendar months after the PP written was passed, the PP written test result remains valid for that PP practical test.

Doesn't the DPE take the test report? I guess you'd have to order a replacement?

 

[poadeleted20]

I didn't think getting a Recreational was even possible anymore.

It is, and if the OP's trainee gets one, s/he will become one of only about 200 people to hold one -- pretty rare, that. The FAA was hoping nobody would want Rec after Sport was invented, and that all Rec pilots would eventually either die or upgrade so they could make that Subpart disappear. The number of Rec Pilots dropped from 310 in 2003 to 212 in 2012, but 52 of those were issued in 2012 (don't have the 2013 end-of-year data yet). In comparison, almost 15,000 people earned a PP-Airplane certificate in that same year. Even Sport was ten times as popular as Rec as a goal in 2012, with over 500 issued and about 4500 in existence.

 

[poadeleted20]

Doesn't the DPE take the test report?

Not any more, unless you're not using IACRA, and the FAA strongly discourages that.

I guess you'd have to order a replacement?

Again, not unless you don't use IACRA on both practical tests.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I'm in the camp that, at least to me, the additional time and training to get a PP over a Recreational is so minimal that there isn't really a point.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm in the camp that, at least to me, the additional time and training to get a PP over a Recreational is so minimal that there isn't really a point.

...especially when you look at the huge differences in privileges and limitations compared to those small differences in training/testing.

 

[Brad Z]

I think he's going to regret that decision the first time his date shows up to go fly with him and she asks to bring her twin sister along.

 

[GCA319]

no, the Private written cannot be used for the Rec. And yes, pilotage is the most basic of navigation skills, and the Sport and Rec training is supposed to emphasize basic stick and rudder and pilotage skills. Never mind all the screaming for your student to "quickly advance" to Private. IMHO opinion, the experience and privileges of the Private cert. is not achievable in the minimum of 40 hours. It used to be, 40 years ago,
but not now.

Huh? I never said anything about quickly advancing tothe private. And I also stated that I quote 60-65 hours for the Private, not 40.

 

[GCA319]

Yes, it is. From the Examiner's Handbook:
As long as the PP practical test is taken within 24 calendar months after the PP written was passed, the PP written test result remains valid for that PP practical test.

That's what it says.
However, to pass the PP written, as you appear to be planning to do, you'll have to learn DR navigation including time/speed/distance and wind corrections just like a PP trainee/applicant. Further, to have that 50nm XC limitation removed, a Rec Pilot must learn and demonstrate the ability to conduct DR nav:
Note that Subpart E is the Private Pilot subpart, and that includes:
That means the Rec Pilot will have to demonstrate proficiency on DR and some navigation system (like VOR or GPS) before receiving that 61.101(c) endorsement.

Thanks Ron. I found all the same stuff on navigation tasks in the PTS,but figured a second opinion would be good. Also, thanks for pulling that reference from order 8900.2. I knew I had read that somewhere!

 

[poadeleted20]

I think he's going to regret that decision the first time his date shows up to go fly with him and she asks to bring her twin sister along.

Ah, yes...as Toby Keith sang about Bobby Jo and Betty Lou, "I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was..."

 

[ClimbnSink]

Dunno sometimes I think it would be better for aviation if people got tickets easier/earlier(sport or rec) then let them do their sunny day lunch runs with a friend. Quit and buy a boat. Just kidding, but you gotta get off the treadmill sometime. And the just a little more training argument doesn't have a financially sound end point. Never mind that a lot of it is based on hamster, gold star on the forehead, pavlovian, ego nonsense. All those years of school still haunting our decisions.