Really bad PA46 accident

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by kmead, Jan 30, 2015.

  1. kmead

    kmead Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    675
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    kmead
  2. jfrye01

    jfrye01 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2013
    Messages:
    150
    Location:
    El Dorado, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jacob Frye
    Holy crap...crazy spin...
     
  3. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    Wow, that was carrying serious energy, and it sounded like he was making power. You have any thoughts? Can the trim runaway so hard you can't overcome it?
     
  4. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    That was no spin.
     
  5. cirrusmx

    cirrusmx Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    Messages:
    794
    Location:
    Boston, Massachussetts
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    campoalavista
    daaam. looks like the plane took some flak.
     
  6. kmead

    kmead Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    675
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    kmead
    They say that much power above the flight idle stop will hold it into a flat spin.
     
  7. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    It's hard to tell with that video and the lighting, maybe, but I'm not convinced I'm seeing a spin. It takes more than a couple of rotations for a spin to go flat.
     
  8. MyassisDragon

    MyassisDragon Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2013
    Messages:
    585
    Location:
    Michigan
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mr Fred
    Ouch, that was bad.
    Wonder if it anything similar to the Malibu that lost a rudder and went into a flat spin near Paris Texas a little while back. :dunno:
     
  9. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,056
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dera
    Suicide?
     
  10. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2014
    Messages:
    6,632
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Unit74
    Can't tell what happened.....****ty day though no matter how you serve it up.
     
  11. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    15,770
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jesse
    I've tried that in a PA46 and no it was not a problem for me and I am by no means super man. That said you want the gear warning, autopilot, and trim circuit breakers marked for quick identification and pull. Not hard to get to from the left seat...pretty damn hard from the right seat.

    But if you're one of those autopilot guys thats scared ****less in IMC without the autopilot and the trim suddenly runs away on you...you'll probably just switch to "watch yourself die instead of take action" mode..and it won't take much time at all before its game over. Quite a few killed in Malibus because of that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015
  12. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,514
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MachFly

    Agreed.
     
  13. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,514
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MachFly
    Pilot incapacitated?
    Control failure?
    Kamikaze?

    Either way there isn't much we can figure out based on that video alone.
     
  14. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    Nope. To me it looks like he was having control issues.
     
  15. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,514
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MachFly
    Well obvious he was having control issues, the question is why. The three scenarios I presented could result in the same type of flight path, so I'm not really sure why you disagree.
     
  16. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    By 'nope' I meant 'nope, can't tell much.' To me it looks like he teetered back and forth on the roll axis which made it seem kind of like he had slack in the controls. I never worked on one so I have no clue as how the controls are rigged and what can happen.:dunno:
     
  17. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,514
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MachFly
    Gotcha, that makes more sense.
     
  18. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    Kevin, is there a point in the cable routing that if it loses integrity, you loose tension on aileron and elevator controls?
     
  19. narchee

    narchee Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2014
    Messages:
    722
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Long Blinker
    :confused:

    I'm not sure why seeing the wings wobble automatically leads you to talking about sloppy cables.
     
  20. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    Because there are only so many reasons you would see that happen, especially the way it appears the motion happend. In a plane with a running engine in not horrible conditions, you just don't lose control like that without something turning loose.

    Granted, I am applying only what I see in a video that I can barely kinda make out what is happening, maybe. I am not claiming this is what happened, just saying out loud what I see leads me to question.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015
  21. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    250lb pilot slumped forward stroked out could have the same effect as he bounced around....
     
  22. Pedals2Paddles

    Pedals2Paddles Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2014
    Messages:
    1,216
    Location:
    FDK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pedals2Paddles
    If the ailerons had no tension, they're not just going to flop around wildly and corkscrew your plane into the ground.
     
  23. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    No, but when you have slack and you use the rudder and catching it at the end of the aileron throw, you're going to generate a similar effect. I don't see the plane cork screwing. I saw it flop one way, then the other. I can't tell if he had any pitch control or not. The only control I see evidence in action of is the rudder. However, I may be totally misperceiving what I see, the video is far from a quality I will claim a solid observation of the events from.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015
  24. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    If anything, it looks like he held in a falling leaf stall to the ground like AF447, that's what it really strikes me as. Ice and altitude hold would explain that..., and the motion and pitch apparent to me are what I get in a Falling Leaf.
     
  25. Cpt_Kirk

    Cpt_Kirk En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2014
    Messages:
    3,297
    Location:
    Georgia
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ted Striker
    Well, it was quick.
     
  26. tiger

    tiger Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    273
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    tiger
    Geneva approach is on LiveATC. The transmissions that relate to the accident are on the tail of the 1030-1100Z / start of the 1100-1130Z recordings. You'll need better French than mine to figure out exactly what's happening.

    Crash site is only a few miles from the airport.

    METAR closest to the time of the accident: 301050Z 17014KT 9999 VCSH FEW015 SCT030 BKN040 01/M01 Q0987 TEMPO 3000 SHSN
     
  27. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,188
    Location:
    Jackson Hole Wy
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FBH
    Boy.... Was that a sickening sound when it hit....:sad::sad::sad::sad:
     
  28. LT4247

    LT4247 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    299
    Location:
    GEORGIA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LT4247
    Painful to watch.....