Real formation flying, with cessnas :D

[thenewseverum]

Me and my friend Ryan went flying while I was up in New Hampshire. We were lucky enough to give flying formation a shot. We had a 30 foot wingtip separation, or at least that's what it was supposed to be. I had not flown in 3 years. I think I did pretty damn good. Yes, we followed the rules, we were briefed before the flight.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYiaoFsOqMc

 

[Jeanie]

Looked pretty cool Severum. What was the music you used?

 

[poadeleted20]

Briefing before the flight takes care of the FAA's rules, but you might want to review some of the basic formation flying materials like the T-34 Formation Flying Manual before you do that again. Getting up level with and even above lead is a good way to end up banging two planes together. Y'all be careful, now, hear?

 

[thenewseverum]

Jeanie the song name is My name is Lincoln.

Yeah Ron, it was our first time doing that so we kept 30 feet away from each other just to be safe.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Me and my friend Ryan went flying while I was up in New Hampshire. We were lucky enough to give flying formation a shot. We had a 30 foot wingtip separation, or at least that's what it was supposed to be. I had not flown in 3 years. I think I did pretty damn good. Yes, we followed the rules, we were briefed before the flight.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYiaoFsOqMc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n7C1AyU-9Q

Can't seem to be able to find a better quality version.

 

[gismo]

Jeanie the song name is My name is Lincoln.

Yeah Ron, it was our first time doing that so we kept 30 feet away from each other just to be safe.

If you haven't had any formation training, 30 ft is not enough to be "safe" unless you are also "lucky". Assuming no such training, what you did was indeed legal but not what any trained formation pilot would call "safe". For example, when you were crossing behind the other plane, what do you expect each of you would do if the other plane's engine quit at that moment? If an airplane appeared, coming from the left at your altitude when you were on the right, and slightly higher than the plane in front, what would prevent you from colliding with your friend's plane when he veres off to his right in an attempt to avoid the plane he just saw coming at him? I also saw nothing to indicate how you formed up, but if that was via a tail chase, there are significant safety issues with that (a normal join is done with both plane's circling. Another non-intuitive issue is that 30 ft apart can be far more dangerous than 10 ft apart, primarily because at that distance you cannot easily judge quickly whether or not you are on a converging course, closer in it's far more obvious. In addition when you are close together it's possible (and required for safety) to adjust your altitude so that the plane you're flying alongside remains in the same relative position when he banks for a turn (e.g. you go up when he banks away and down when he banks towards you). That way you can always see each other

Formation flying can be a lot of fun but I strongly recommend you train for it before attempting it again.

 

[Doggtyred]

If you haven't had any formation training, 30 ft is not enough to be "safe" unless you are also "lucky".

Concur... 30' is pretty tight for first time..

Theres a lot of good advice in this thread.. its worth following up on.

Glad you had fun. Now learn to do it right/safely.

 

[PittsDriver]

Nice flying Severum. Most of it is smooth and small moves and you had that down. Here's a short video of a photo op I did with a friend flying his Baron:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RFdYgctK6w

We're a little closer than 30' but I've also got 5 years of pretty decent formation experience/training.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Nice flying Severum. Most of it is smooth and small moves and you had that down. Here's a short video of a photo op I did with a friend flying his Baron:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RFdYgctK6w

We're a little closer than 30' but I've also got 5 years of pretty decent formation experience/training.

And I see your eyes never left the other aircraft since you were the one maintaining the separation.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yeah Ron, it was our first time doing that so we kept 30 feet away from each other just to be safe.

Thirty feet isn't enough to be safe if you're that far out of position vertically. I suggest contacting some of the formation flying training folks and getting some proper training before you try it again, because things can go wrong faster and worse than anyone without serious formation training can imagine. If anyone's interested in learning about what it takes to become a formation pilot, read these articles:

Up Close and Personal: Formation Flying (Jennifer Whitley, AvWeb)
Deceptive Form (Scott Spangler, AOPA Pilot)
Formation Flying (Barry Schiff, AOPA Pilot)
A Continuous Near-Miss (Alton Marsh, AOPA Pilot)

If you want to do it, contact:

For warbirds (including T-34's and other military trainers), Formation And Safety Team (FAST) via your type club.

For civilian types (especially Grumman, Swift, and RV):

Stu McCurdy
Formation Flight, Inc.
3509 Gattis School Road
Round Rock, Texas 78664
​

 

[bbchien]

ruh roh rorge.

The problem is when people don't know enough to know how badly they did it.

In both the Baron vid and in the Cessna vid, the wingman to too high (even just a couple of feet) about 60% of the time.....your eyeball needs to be just about at the level of the lead's MLG TIRES if extended.

I'd be embarassed to publish that I did that.

Sigh.

 

[PittsDriver]

ruh roh rorge.

The problem is when people don't know enough to know how badly they did it.

In both the Baron vid and in the Cessna vid, the wingman to too high (even just a couple of feet) about 60% of the time.....your eyeball needs to be just about at the level of the lead's MLG TIRES if extended.

I'd be embarassed to publish that I did that.

Sigh.

Hi Bruce - perhaps it escaped your notice that I was flying a bi-plane and if I positioned myself a few feet lower the lead aircraft would have been out of sight? I certainly don't have the experience in formation flying that some might have and I'd happy to learn from anyone. Other than your observation about my altitude wrt to the lead, is there something else in that video I should be concerned about? I'm not at all embarrassed to have any mistakes I've made pointed out.

 

[bbchien]

I was aware of that. My take on it is there are some types of a/c that do not lend themselves well to formation flight. We each make our own beds.

On a public board there are posters of all ranges of sophistication, some with 50 hours who know it all, some with 8000 who don't know jack. Astro's ruh roh doesn't presume any particular level of sophistication.

I know I'm not good enough to do what you did with dissimilar types. In formation flight, when we were taught that, the big transport bird always had the point. And we hated dissimilar type formation.

With T34s we would get it within half a wing span or we'd washout. If you are good enough to do that with confidence, more power to you. The Lead aircraft doesn't and shouldn't worry if the wingman is in sight. That's not his concern. His concern is communicating his next move and executing in a tempo-predictable, smooth and never abrupt manner.

Wingman is the MUCH Much HARDER task. If your other pilot was not formation trained, you did right letting him have the point. But the view from your cockpit I thought, suggested this "dissimilar type" formation was not a good idea.

 

[Ted]

That is all.

 

[PittsDriver]

I
But the view from your cockpit I thought, suggested this "dissimilar type" formation was not a good idea.

I'd agree with you if we were traveling this way. I've flown formation on several hundred mile XC flights and I wouldn't have attempted anything like this video if that were the case. We briefed the flight, formed up for a few minutes of photo op and then went our separate ways. Dissimilar type formation flying happens often in photo ops - there's a few magazine covers with me in the windscreen of the subject aircraft.

Perhaps the advise for those that aren't trained/experienced in formation flying is the same as for acro, spins, etc - get some instruction before attempting. I certainly didn't mean for my post to encourage anyone to fly close until they're ready.

 

[gismo]

I'd agree with you if we were traveling this way. I've flown formation on several hundred mile XC flights and I wouldn't have attempted anything like this video if that were the case. We briefed the flight, formed up for a few minutes of photo op and then went our separate ways. Dissimilar type formation flying happens often in photo ops - there's a few magazine covers with me in the windscreen of the subject aircraft.

Perhaps the advise for those that aren't trained/experienced in formation flying is the same as for acro, spins, etc - get some instruction before attempting. I certainly didn't mean for my post to encourage anyone to fly close until they're ready.

I only have a little experience with dissimilar types in formation (but a fair amount of CJ-6 to CJ-6 and Baron to Bonanza/Baron time) and I agree that your #2 priority is staying in a position where you can see your lead and have an escape path if something goes wrong with lead (#1 being don't swap paint). The AT-6 guys I've flown with will occasionally stack up (wing is higher than lead) but they try to avoid it most of the time.

One comment WRT Bruces statement that putting the inexperience pilot in front is best: All the formation groups strongly advise against this, and having been lead a number of times I can say that it's a lot more difficult to fly lead properly than wing. The difference is that being lead is mostly a mental thing vs the physical skills needed to fly wing. It does seem that for a short period of straight and level, all that's likely to be required of lead is to fly steady but things could get a lot more complicated if another airplane comes into the picture and/or there's some other reason that the flight has to maneuver. A pilot with little or no formation training is far more likely to react with abrupt flight or engine control movement to something unexpected or belatedly recognized than someone who's been flying formation for a while. YRMV.

 

[SkyHog]

I say again:

Formation flying is easy. Don't hit the other plane. Looks like a successful formation flight to me.

 

[maddog52]

One comment WRT Bruces statement that putting the inexperience pilot in front is best: All the formation groups strongly advise against this, and having been lead a number of times I can say that it's a lot more difficult to fly lead properly than wing. The difference is that being lead is mostly a mental thing vs the physical skills needed to fly wing. It does seem that for a short period of straight and level, all that's likely to be required of lead is to fly steady but things could get a lot more complicated if another airplane comes into the picture and/or there's some other reason that the flight has to maneuver. A pilot with little or no formation training is far more likely to react with abrupt flight or engine control movement to something unexpected or belatedly recognized than someone who's been flying formation for a while. YRMV.

I've had a couple thousand hours of formation instruction (giving and receiving) and I agree with you 100%. Like you said, most people that teach formation feel the same way. There are reasons as( you've stated) that a pilot starts off as a wingman and works his way up to flight lead and not the other way around. The formation is only as good and safe as the head and stick up front can make it.