re: Clashing Military Cultures

I've always believed the Marines were treated as "B***ard" stepchildren when it came to equipment. You didn't need to be a rocket scientist to see that. Some of the most courageous men came from them too. And he's right, the Coast Guard wasn't treated much better.
Hand-me-downs. That's all they used to get. And funny how they always managed to still get the job done.
 
A little of what John said and it also appears that the author has some issues with the Air Force. Probably jealousy that they would not let him because he was not smart enough ;)
 
I spent 4 years on active duty and 8 in the reserves as a Marine, so you know where my biases are.

I personally think that one of the worst decisions ever made was separating the Air Force from the Army. Air is most effective when it is closely tied to surface combat elements, and too often the Air Force has gone off to fight their own war while the Army has lacked good support.

I saw this while cross training with Army officers who were amazed at the level of support we got from Marine air compared to what they received. To put it in simple terms, in the Marines, the commander on the ground can directly task fixed wing aircraft that have been assigned to directly support his unit. In other word, he can say "I want bombs from this F/A18 on that target, right now". In the Army, the commander on the ground has to ask the air force commander, who then tasks the aircraft, which takes time.

Jay
 
Read some history. Look at the North African Campaign during WWII and see why today, the Air Force manages CAS the way it does. Many Americans and Allies died learning how not to manage air assets effectively. The Army used to have organic fixed wing air assets and the Germans almost beat the tar out of us because of it. Doctrine has evolved over the years to leverage the unique capabilities of fixed wing air power. You mention the time delay in getting air support by not having organic air assets (air allocated to a ground commander for his exclusive use)--with our communications capabilities, precision weapons, and fast aircraft, there can and usually is ordnance on a target in less time than it took for me to type this paragraph. The Marines need organic air assets because part of their mission is to be there first with only what they've got with them. That's fine if you're storming a beach or island. With an AOR of an entire country (oh, wait--that's two countries, Iraq and Afghanistan) and units scattered all over, do you think that assigning F-16s/F-15Es or A-10s to individual ground commanders is at all feasible? How many F-16s/F-15Es and A-10s do you think we have? How many do you think we have in theater?

I hate to break your bubble but unless the Marines are storming a beach or island, even their normally organic fixed wing air assets are controlled by a JFACC (Joint Force Air Component Commander) and tasked to support ground troops exactly the same way Navy and Air Force air assets are allocated. The Army and Marines have rotor wing CAS that is supposed to fulfill the organic requirements of individual ground commanders in a theater campaign. Those rotorcraft are probably a stone's throw away from the troops they support. The same can't be said for fixed wing. I just hate it when we want to relearn the same lessons over and over again. 24 years, 3 Mos active duty, numerous tours in multiple joint and combined air operations centers.
 
LOL...well I was nothing but a ground pounder....and I know we LOVED the A-10. However to see the current paradigm of the Air Force (the F22 as a CAS, who the HELL are they kidding!) I too wish we had the Air Force folded back into the Army.

Then again I am a radical...I do not think we should have branches as they exist today. All name tapes should say "US Military" only....with individuals assigned as needed. Too much inter-branch rivalry, lack of communications if you ask me.
 
What are this guy's qualifications?

You can't base the future on current wars - you have to look forward to future wars. Air superiority wins wars. The Raptor guarantees that.

This guy is a loon. To say that the Air Force is doing nothing in the current war against terror is naive and ignorant. Who killed Al Zarqawi? Who gets the troops to the battlefield? How do you think most of the targets are taken out in theater? Air power.

As for no lives being lost in combat - wrong. Just a few months ago a Viper was lost during a CAS mission. At the beginning of OIF, we lost a Mudhen. There have been countless others lost. The Marines and army aren't the only ones losing troops.
 
What are this guy's qualifications?

You can't base the future on current wars - you have to look forward to future wars. Air superiority wins wars. The Raptor guarantees that.

This guy is a loon. To say that the Air Force is doing nothing in the current war against terror is naive and ignorant. Who killed Al Zarqawi? Who gets the troops to the battlefield? How do you think most of the targets are taken out in theater? Air power.

As for no lives being lost in combat - wrong. Just a few months ago a Viper was lost during a CAS mission. At the beginning of OIF, we lost a Mudhen. There have been countless others lost. The Marines and army aren't the only ones losing troops.

I didnt read the article and am definitely no expert in anything military. But doesnt there have to be something else in the air to be superior over?? Yea i know, we bomb(ed) the hell out of Iraq, but not really anymore. Seems the only other thing up there with us is the Anti Aircraft fire we attract.
 
I didnt read the article and am definitely no expert in anything military. But doesnt there have to be something else in the air to be superior over?? Yea i know, we bomb(ed) the hell out of Iraq, but not really anymore. Seems the only other thing up there with us is the Anti Aircraft fire we attract.

Iran, Syria, North Korea, China.... Iraq had an air force...

Air superiority is important to keep bombs from falling on ground troops, but it's also important to keep Close Air Support assets in place to support those ground troops.
 
Iran, Syria, North Korea, China.... Iraq had an air force...

Air superiority is important to keep bombs from falling on ground troops, but it's also important to keep Close Air Support assets in place to support those ground troops.

Oh yea I remember hearing about that. I think it was on Day 2 that CNN said that we dropped about 2 bombs and took out the Iraqi Air "Force"
 
Oh yea I remember hearing about that. I think it was on Day 2 that CNN said that we dropped about 2 bombs and took out the Iraqi Air "Force"

I quess you won't be happy until US airplanes are shot down and the number of dead pilots equal the number of dead soldiers. I guess body count is the metric on how much effort you're expending. How many more dead soldiers would there be if they couldn't turn to their GFAC and ask for that third building from the right to be leveled because that's where the enemy mortars are coming from?

I agree that the F-22 is not optimized for CAS. It is primarily an Air-to-Air platform with some ground attack capability. I wish it was less expensive but it isn't. Just because you're a carpenter and today you're driving screws all day doesn't mean you don't need a hammer in your toolbox for the next job. A lot of the Army officers I've met can't see past the next 24 hours so they only want A-10s 'cause all they're tasked to do is drive screws today.

The reason the air campaign went so smoothly in Iraqi freedom was just because the USAF, Navy and Marine fixed wing air is so capable. Iraq realized straight off they didn't have a chance. Without the capability of those US (and allied) air-to-air assets, the Iraqis would have fought just like they did against Iran and the friendly casualties would have been much higher.
 
I spent 4 years on active duty and 8 in the reserves as a Marine, so you know where my biases are.

I personally think that one of the worst decisions ever made was separating the Air Force from the Army. Air is most effective when it is closely tied to surface combat elements, and too often the Air Force has gone off to fight their own war while the Army has lacked good support.
You are neglecting the role the USAF has as part of the nuclear triad of strategic bombing. When the decisions was made to create a separate Air Force it was to handle this issue which the Army was not addressing. Thankfully that mission has been relegated to the past but there are still needs beyond close air support that the Air Force is addressing.

If you think about one has to wonder why the Navy department has to have its own infantry group that is somewhat autonomous. Naval infantry, BTW, is the technical generic term for the USMC. Why not just have the Army provide that service via additional training?
 
I quess you won't be happy until US airplanes are shot down and the number of dead pilots equal the number of dead soldiers. I guess body count is the metric on how much effort you're expending. How many more dead soldiers would there be if they couldn't turn to their GFAC and ask for that third building from the right to be leveled because that's where the enemy mortars are coming from?

I agree that the F-22 is not optimized for CAS. It is primarily an Air-to-Air platform with some ground attack capability. I wish it was less expensive but it isn't. Just because you're a carpenter and today you're driving screws all day doesn't mean you don't need a hammer in your toolbox for the next job. A lot of the Army officers I've met can't see past the next 24 hours so they only want A-10s 'cause all they're tasked to do is drive screws today.

The reason the air campaign went so smoothly in Iraqi freedom was just because the USAF, Navy and Marine fixed wing air is so capable. Iraq realized straight off they didn't have a chance. Without the capability of those US (and allied) air-to-air assets, the Iraqis would have fought just like they did against Iran and the friendly casualties would have been much higher.

Well said.
 
I quess you won't be happy until US airplanes are shot down and the number of dead pilots equal the number of dead soldiers. I guess body count is the metric on how much effort you're expending. How many more dead soldiers would there be if they couldn't turn to their GFAC and ask for that third building from the right to be leveled because that's where the enemy mortars are coming from?

I agree that the F-22 is not optimized for CAS. It is primarily an Air-to-Air platform with some ground attack capability. I wish it was less expensive but it isn't. Just because you're a carpenter and today you're driving screws all day doesn't mean you don't need a hammer in your toolbox for the next job. A lot of the Army officers I've met can't see past the next 24 hours so they only want A-10s 'cause all they're tasked to do is drive screws today.

The reason the air campaign went so smoothly in Iraqi freedom was just because the USAF, Navy and Marine fixed wing air is so capable. Iraq realized straight off they didn't have a chance. Without the capability of those US (and allied) air-to-air assets, the Iraqis would have fought just like they did against Iran and the friendly casualties would have been much higher.

This is true. What is sometime forgotten about the Air Force is that it is there mission to clear things out of the way in advance of the ground fighting, which tends to be awful. That is why there are those of us who preferred flying over them, but I did my fair share of liaison stuff on the ground too.

In OTS many years ago we covered how effective strategic bombing was to overall ground operations. What was surprising was that if you looked at the metric of industrial output as a function of bombing effectiveness then in WW2 strategic bombing was an utter failure. Even during the height of bombing the Nazi's were able to increase their industrial output. It was the cost of that output that was the real measure. It cost them so much in resources and manpower that to try an maintain the industrial output stripped their ground forces of much needed supplies.

The cost was high on our end too. But were were building something like a 150 planes a day, so we could suck it up. The bottom line is that Air Superiority alone will not win the war, but without it you are almost sure to loose.
 
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