Rant....

[jesse]

So right now I'm sitting at Million Air at KSTP...


I flew here last night and decided to stay overnight. This morning it was obvious that I was going to need a preheat. Ok, That is fair. I can handle paying $30 for it.

Well it turns out their preheater was broken. So now my options consisted of living here until summer or putting the airplane in a hangar.

So I went with the hangar option. Now I would have thought they would charge a somewhat reasonable rate. Nope. $100 to put a C150 in a hangar for a few hours since their preheater is broken.

$#*(&@#*@&#*(@&*(@&$*(@


// End rant.

So now I continue to wait...

 

[spiderweb]

Don't let them take advantage of you. Tell them that it isn't your fault the preheat isn't working. BTW, are you sure you need it? Is is below 20F?

 

[Bones]

Tell Di if shes working I said hello! ahahah

 

[RotaryWingBob]

That does sound kind of sleazy (I would have pulled my Cherokee out of the hangar and let you use it -- the hangar that is-- for only $75 ).

You might want to consider installing a Reiff band heater which you can then leave plugged in all night to keep the cylinders somewhat warmer than the surrounding air. I have one on the Piper from the days of an unheated hangar and the flight school here at N99 uses them as well.

 

[fgcason]

Let me see if I have this right: They have a warm heated hangar that's already toasty with (I'm guessing) empty floor space that's not being used and want to charge $100 for you to roll your plane in and let it sit there for a little while. No effort or expense on their part. I'm guessing you're also willing to open/close the doors and roll the plane in yourself so they wouldn't even have to put a coat on.

Worst case they should hit you with the $30 that the preheater would have cost since you were willing to use that and it's not your fault it's not working.

Sensibly, you're not really costing them anything beyond a couple pennys of open door heat and maybe a small water puddle you would clean up yourself...so...normal courtesy would put you in the hangar for nothing and maybe a "tell your friends about us" parting comment.

Sigh...

For next time: Consider getting one of the little backpacking camp stove preheater contraptions...or better yet, you could build one yourself for under $100 (that includes a really good quality $60-70 stove if you don't have one already) that would fit in a small toolbox.

FWIW: Assuming I didn't have room, I would have rolled my own plane out of it's hangar and warmed yours up for nothing more than a "please", some polite airplane conversation and a simple "thank you." I would have tossed in a cup of hot chocolate, sitting chairs, and couple drying rags for nothing.

 

[jesse]

Don't let them take advantage of you. Tell them that it isn't your fault the preheat isn't working. BTW, are you sure you need it? Is is below 20F?

It was about 1 degree F.

Beleive me. I needed it. I could barely even turn the prop over by hand. The starter couldn't even turn the prop.

I'm home now.

It sat in their hangar for 1 hour 30 minutes. They then wanted to charge me the $95 for that. I was pretty ****ed and finally they gave in and just charged me the preheat. I don't think I'd say overall it was very friendly. I think the mention of a bad airnav review may have helped.

I don't really blame the staff so much as the management running their company and training their employees that this is how things should be done. Now I understand that I'm not very profitable to them as a C150 versus the corporate jets. But I will remember this when I'm in one of those jets.

You might want to consider installing a Reiff band heater which you can then leave plugged in all night to keep the cylinders somewhat warmer than the surrounding air. I have one on the Piper from the days of an unheated hangar and the flight school here at N99 uses them as well.

It was a rental plane.. C150.

 

[EdFred]

Carry a blow dryer, cowl plugs, and an extension cord.

 

[gismo]

Don't let them take advantage of you. Tell them that it isn't your fault the preheat isn't working. BTW, are you sure you need it? Is is below 20F?

It was close to zero F, the high for today was supposed to be 6 or 7.

 

[jrdodge]

Sorry about the bad day. At least they came down to the $30. It surprises me they were so bad about it, they are usually nice at Million Air at STP.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

No effort or expense on their part.

This isn't even close to being true. During our colder winter months my local maintenance shop's owner opens the hanger doors twice per day--once in the morning to bring inside the day's work delivered by owners the night before, and once in the evening to move the day's completed work outside for the owners to reclaim--and he tells me the later move is preceded by resetting the shop thermostat to a mere pipe preservation temperature. He tells me that he uses $50 in propane to reheat the hanger to working temperatures after the doors have opened and closed. His hanger isn't near the size of the hangers I've seen at most Millionaire locations.

 

[Greebo]

He tells me that he uses $50 in propane to reheat the hanger to working temperatures after the doors have opened and closed.

Interesting - he must use a LOT of propane...

Cause I took a glass blowing class where the guy runs propane glass furnaces all day long and his biggest business expense was propane - about $100 a week if I recall correctly. I'll have to ask him.

 

[n20junkie]

a heated hanger is not a heated hanger after you open the doors, thats like one big air flush, cold air rushes in the bottom and hot are runs out, it takes seconds to make that hanger really cold, so its definatly not free, plus the crew needed to tug it in (1 tug driver and a wing walker), a FBO is a business, and one that is not required to carry a heater, its nice, but sometimes if you plane an overnight a call to verify equipment is a good idea, and know that it might be broken when you get there, its equipment, it breaks. Thats life, don't expect everyone to hook ya up cause thier equipment broke, if that was the case everyone would be out of business. Its just life.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

That is EXACTLY right. It takes only a minute or two to dump the heat out of the hangar.

 

[jesse]

a heated hanger is not a heated hanger after you open the doors, thats like one big air flush, cold air rushes in the bottom and hot are runs out, it takes seconds to make that hanger really cold, so its definatly not free, plus the crew needed to tug it in (1 tug driver and a wing walker), a FBO is a business, and one that is not required to carry a heater, its nice, but sometimes if you plane an overnight a call to verify equipment is a good idea, and know that it might be broken when you get there, its equipment, it breaks. Thats life, don't expect everyone to hook ya up cause thier equipment broke, if that was the case everyone would be out of business. Its just life.

When I fly to a decent sized airport, go to a major FBO and pay a major price for fuel. I can in return expect them to have basic equipment, This is the reason you go to the FBO.

I come in the next morning and am perfectly willing to pay $30 for a preheat. I see the line guy outside for the longest time looking confused, followed by me going outside and seeing if I can help at all.. standing out there for a good 30 minutes before he decides it is broke.

The FBO at this point failed to provide a basic service that IS THEIR BUSINESS.

When I am then told that they do not have another preheater and the only option is to pay $100 to have the airplane put into a hangar for a hour. That is a bit steep. It does not cost them $100 everytime they open the door. If that were the case I don't think the FBO I rent from would ever turn a profit.. all their rentals are in a heated hangar.

At this point they failed to hold up to their end of the deal, being a company that is there to provide services to aircraft. I shouldn't be the one that takes the major hit. $100 is a big deal. That is the same price as flying the rental there in the first place. That is 1/3 of what I make in a week.

In business obviously you want to turn a profit. You also want to be around for awhile. Making a quick $100 off of me now would have really bit them in the ass in the future. If I would have paid that $100 I would have *NEVER* went there again. Not only that, I would have remembered this for my entire career. They would have lost a LOT more money.

A business that tries to make a quick buck off of a person has a very quick lifespan. That's life.

When you fail to hold up your end of the deal, in business, or otherwise. There will be a result. This may involve you taking a hit. That's life. Don't expect the other party to just "understand". It's just life.

 

[n20junkie]

my post was not intent in insulting anyone, but i know from owning a business that things are never as cheap as people first assume, and flying in the cold north, i know that its tough to get a preheat, even for the rental planes owned by the FBO (at buffalo international). Unlike you've been lead to believe, starting an engine in the cold is not the end of the world, many engines are started in cold weather and they make tbo or exceed it, mine included. If the engine would not start with the battery, its probably on its last leg of life. i just don't see a serious problem here, but thats just my opinion.

 

[Henning]

It was about 1 degree F.

Beleive me. I needed it. I could barely even turn the prop over by hand. The starter couldn't even turn the prop.

I'm home now.

It sat in their hangar for 1 hour 30 minutes. They then wanted to charge me the $95 for that. I was pretty ****ed and finally they gave in and just charged me the preheat. I don't think I'd say overall it was very friendly. I think the mention of a bad airnav review may have helped.

I don't really blame the staff so much as the management running their company and training their employees that this is how things should be done. Now I understand that I'm not very profitable to them as a C150 versus the corporate jets. But I will remember this when I'm in one of those jets.


It was a rental plane.. C150.

I'd take issue with Million Air Corp management. They might like to know. Unless they have recently changed, Million Air in my experience was always a good and friendly place. They even put my frozen up and ice laden Travel Air in the hangar overnight for free once. They were always a bit pricey on fuel, but hey, gotta pay for that jacuzzi out the back somehow.

 

[inav8r]

That is EXACTLY right. It takes only a minute or two to dump the heat out of the hangar.

Well, only partially right. Most (ok, all of) the large heated airplane hangars that I've been in use radiant heaters - which heat the objects in the garage and not the air. (The air is then heated by the warm objects). These are the kinds of heaters that have long pipes w/ reflectors above them on the ceilings. Objects in those spaces do take longer than just a couple of minutes to reach air temperature.

Before you say I'm nuts, think of how the sand at the beach is hotter than the air at the beach.

Yes opening and closing the doors does cause heat loss no matter what heating system you use, but I can't see how it would cost someone $50 per opening - unless they're using a forced air heating system (like in a house) - which is the wrong way to heat that kind of space.

 

[gismo]

Well, only partially right. Most (ok, all of) the large heated airplane hangars that I've been in use radiant heaters - which heat the objects in the garage and not the air. (The air is then heated by the warm objects). These are the kinds of heaters that have long pipes w/ reflectors above them on the ceilings. Objects in those spaces do take longer than just a couple of minutes to reach air temperature.

Before you say I'm nuts, think of how the sand at the beach is hotter than the air at the beach.

Yes opening and closing the doors does cause heat loss no matter what heating system you use, but I can't see how it would cost someone $50 per opening - unless they're using a forced air heating system (like in a house) - which is the wrong way to heat that kind of space.

Regarless of the heating system type, when you open the door you aren't going to get anywhere near a complete exchange of air in the time it takes to roll a plane in unless there are gale force winds. Also even if you did manage to take the average internal air temp down to the OAT, the heat capacity of the air is a small fraction of the total when you include the structure and it's more massive contents. Having all that stuff at or near the normal indoor airtemp goes a long way towards warming the air quickly. I'd bet that if you had the entire hangar stabilized at 60 F prior to opening the door for 5 minutes with a 0 F OAT, the internal air temp would rise back to at least 50 F with the heat off after you closed the doors.

 

[n20junkie]

I worked 8 years in a radiant heated hanger, and i can tell ya that it doesn't heat back up quick, regardless of how much aluminum there is in the hanger, and how hot it is, thats not nearly enough to raise the temp back to 50 degrees, it takes a good hour plus of 4 heaters to do the job, not cheap. Do that twice, plus 1 man hour (2 guys, at 15 min a piece per move) and you see that the cost does add up. many are assuming, i've experianced it.

 

[wsuffa]

Always call ahead. Ask if preheat is available. You'd be surprised at how many places claim it doesn't work.

Better to install Reiff or Tanis, or carry some kind of heater in the plane.

 

[jesse]

Always call ahead. Ask if preheat is available. You'd be surprised at how many places claim it doesn't work.

It was broke. That simple. Would not heat up, I was out there with the line guy for a good half an hour trying to fix it or figure out why it wasn't working.

This is a pretty MAJOR FBO. With a TON of traffic coming in and out, preheating airplanes are a normal daily operation.

 

[wsuffa]

It was broke. That simple. Would not heat up, I was out there with the line guy for a good half an hour trying to fix it or figure out why it wasn't working.

This is a pretty MAJOR FBO. With a TON of traffic coming in and out, preheating airplanes are a normal daily operation.

My point was that I've run across a number of places where the same thing has occurred - only they knew about it days ahead of time.

Last year, I called Aerosmith at MRB before arrival and they told me it was broke. I made my plans accordingly (moved departure back a few hours).