Questions for the Ronafide.

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by OkieFlyer, Aug 17, 2021.

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  1. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Today informed consent & bioethics seem to be just talking points rather than policy.
     
  2. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I know a guy that is over 90 and smokes and drinks everyday, so smoking and drinking is clearly the secret to a long life, lol
     
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  3. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    smokes what?
     
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  4. Daleandee

    Daleandee Pattern Altitude

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    Yep ... there appears to be a way to prove or disprove almost anything ... :eek:
     
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  5. Daleandee

    Daleandee Pattern Altitude

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    I didn't consider that he might be talkin' Willie Nelson. :p
     
  6. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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  7. GaryM

    GaryM Line Up and Wait

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    As we say in the biz, "The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'".
     
  8. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Pet insurance is getting to be a big thing now. People are spending their futures on trying to cure cancer or whatever in dogs and cats. Not judging, just not something I would do... most likely, I don't own pets due to allergies in the family.

    My daughter just accepted a job that offers pet insurance. She has yet to figure out if she has to pay for it or not, but even if she does I'm betting it's highly subsidized by the company.
     
  9. X3 Skier

    X3 Skier En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Wondering what you consider long term? Just curious.

    Cheers
     
  10. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    and we can save so much money by not wasting resources on that "sciencey" stuff.
     
  11. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    You’re kidding, right?
     
  12. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    a blend of kentucky bluegrass and northern california sensimillia. Oh crap, I said California, here come the torches and pitchforks...
     
  13. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    come on, thoughts and prayers are all we need... Screw the scientific method and peer reviewed studies. What could a phd researcher know that I don't when it took them twice as long to get their degree.
     
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  14. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    so which studies should we give cred? Cleveland Clinc? or the ones from Texas? or just the ones the CDC espouses?
     
  15. GaryM

    GaryM Line Up and Wait

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    It might be something some employers offer to sweeten the benefits package. Or not. My previous and current employers offer pet insurance as an option, but it was not subsidized in any way. The insurer just offered up a discounted 'employee' rate, in exchange for having the option put in front of every employee at Open Enrollment time.
     
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  16. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I had an uncle, WWII and Korea vet. He smoked, drank and was overweight. He died at 83 due to injuries he sustained in a car wreck 6 months earlier.
     
  17. X3 Skier

    X3 Skier En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  18. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Just checking… hard to know sometimes! ;)
     
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  19. Kansas Flyer

    Kansas Flyer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That's a hard one for me to answer since I don't feel like there should be an arbitrary number to certify something as safe or not safe for use. In this case I understand why we didn't spend years testing before mass production but I would certainly be more comfortable with a longer track record before getting the stick. On the other hand we have or soon will have far more data much quicker than in the past with other vaccines due to the sheer number of people that have been vaccinated already. Also I'm sure there will be continued tweaking and improvement with additional data, testing, and research. Something along the lines of the old saying of "don't buy the A model of anything".

    Not to take this too far into the weeds, but like I said before I'm actually more concerned with the increasing possibility that vaccination will become involuntarily and the implications that has on our rights and liberty.
     
  20. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I understand where you are coming from. keep in mind that this is SARS-CoV-2 and SARS-CoV-1 has been studied for over 15 years. Regardless, still quick vaccine development but, not as "new" as some would like you to think. Before I get attacked, they are different but with similarities. Way too much to get into on a pilot forum. Then there is the whole discussion on advancements in vaccine development in general that aided quick development.
     
  21. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 En-Route

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    Not really I think California is really good at growing things or at least used to be. It’s just the other exports that I have a problem with.
     
  22. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Ejection Handle Pulled

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    My experience was north of the city 60 miles and in the second surge winter 2020. No tent hospitals and no mercy ship.
     
  23. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Why would they have made the same expensive mistake twice?
     
  24. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Ejection Handle Pulled

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    It has been widely proven, including in a court of law that the Sacklers were hugely responsible for pushing opiates into the hands of doctors and paying those doctors to sell as many as they could, knowing that the same opiates were highly addictive and would result in long term and harmful effects for many people.

    Was this person an older individual who was more likely to get a stroke regardless? People do get strokes everyday. 795,000 per year in fact along with a total of 7 million having had them at one point in their life.

    My best friend from college works the ER in a Virginia hospital and his wife is a RN that was pregnant and she got the vaccine as soon as it was offered. Baby was born without issues. If we are throwing out random data point.

    Also, you do know that there are plenty of vaccines that are required, even in this country, and laws requiring them have been upheld. You have to vaccinate to go to school. You have to have vaccines to travel around the world, depending on the country (yellow fever).

    It wasn't exactly the second time for our area, as opposed to NYC. This was the first time that the hospitals were maxed out in the county.
     
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  25. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I was just at my kids pediatrician yesterday.

    She (doctor) asked a parent "Are you going to get vaccinated?"
    The answer was "The vaccine is not FDA approved, so I'll wait."
    She asked "When the vaccine is fully FDA approved in October are you going to get it?"
    The answer was "No, I don't really trust the FDA."

    These excuses are just that - excuses.
     
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  26. SkyChaser

    SkyChaser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I really shouldn't say anything, but as someone who worked as a teacher, I know that as of yet, the laws still allow parents to refuse to vaccinate their child for medical or religious reasons. And it just requires a waiver to send that same child without vaccines to school. I don't see why the covid shot should be any different. If you want to get it, get it and shut up. If you don't want to get it, don't and shut up. What you put in your body is your business and what I put in mine is mine. Same with choosing the level of risk a person is comfortable with. It should be a matter of personal choice and I don't think the government should be allowed to interfere with that liberty. Just as an aside, as a thought exercise, if the vaccine is effective, you should be fine coming into contact with those who are unvaccinated as you will only get mildly ill and if it's not effective, there's no reason to take it.
     
  27. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    What is there to consider? Outliers such as these are more or less just anecdotal and are used as a confirmation bias. It’s not a strong point to draw any conclusions from or make the suggestion that vaccines should be avoided.
     
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  28. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Don't go get'n all sciency n' stuff. Herd immunity ended polio, oh wait, vaccinations ended polio. nevermind.
     
  29. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ok, with this type of logic you have convinced me, survival of the fittest! Screw those that can't get vaccinated (i.e. children and those with autoimmune disorders), those ingrateful sponges.
     
  30. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If the vaccine killed the virus or provided enough immunity it might have a chance at effectivity. But neither of those are so.
     
  31. azblackbird

    azblackbird Pattern Altitude

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    Yep, I agree all this government data about the adverse side effects from the C19 vaccines are purely anecdotal. What's odd is this data only represents approximately 1% to 10% of what is not being reported. I remember when Vioxx was introduced. All the side effects were purely "anecdotal"... until they weren't. :cool:
     
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  32. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    I agree, I’m all for personal choice, but it seems as though a lot of people have forgotten that immunization records have been a thing for decades and your admission to most, if not every school, is dependent on your ability to provide proof of vaccination against several of the ‘old school’ viruses and diseases. It’s not a new thing, so I really don’t understand the polarization amongst everyone.
     
  33. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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  34. SkyChaser

    SkyChaser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Can you explain how this is survival of the fittest, please? Children can't get vaccinated, sure, but they also have incredibly low death rates, as well as few long-lasting effects. Those with auto-immune disorders can't be exposed to any type of illness, whether covid or not. I knew a girl who gave piano lessons who had an autoimmune disorder and she had to request anyone with just a cold to stay home as it could quite literally kill her to contract that. Me getting a covid vaccine wouldn't help her, either, as I could still get the flu or a cold with the same effect for her. I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but I'm not seeing how that equates to survival of the fittest?

    My thing is that most if not all of those schools allow a student to either provide proof of vaccination or a religious or medical exemption. I have yet to come across a school that refused a religious or medical exemption for even the "old school" vaccines. And I don't see why the covid vaccine shouldn't be considered same as the other vaccines - as a choice.
     
  35. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    And you know there’s 90% more data that’s not being reported? Sounds like more anecdotal speculation. Seems like nowadays the non-scientific community knows more than the microbiologists, immunologists and other professionally educated individuals.
    From what I understand, that will still be the case for the COVID vaccinations.
     
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  36. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Ejection Handle Pulled

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    New York does not have any exemptions for childhood vaccines other than defined medical exemptions. Religious or personal viewpoints are not acceptable anymore.

    Ok, so you also agree that a private business (bookstore, restaurant, gym), including doctors and hospitals, insurance companies, and the like can refuse service to anyone they choose as long as it is not discriminatory (race, sex, age, disability, origin, religion?

    Would you exempt yourself from care at a hospital or monetary insurance coverage if you catch COVID and require serious treatment? If not, you are placing an extra burden on the rest of us based on a personal viewpoint, just like Cirrus drivers that pull the chute and total a million dollar airframe raise the insurance rates for everyone else.

    It had a chance before the virus mutated so much because of several hundred million cases. Current vaccines are strong enough to keep the virus transmission low enough to allow for the next generation of vaccine to be able to be developed - if everyone was actually vaccinated - which we have enough doses for - and which a large portion of the population is refusing to take.

    New York does not have any exemptions for childhood vaccines other than defined medical exemptions. Religious or personal viewpoints are not acceptable anymore. And valid medical exemptions are being checked so they can no longer come from just a handful of anti-vax doctors making things up for parents.
     
  37. Daleandee

    Daleandee Pattern Altitude

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    Could be or maybe not. This is not the first person to report issues with vaccines.

    FWIW ... I'm not against vaccines at all but I am against anyone trying to tell others what they should do. My family is aware and has used vaccines but it's not something to advertise and demand that others should do. People should make their choices on facts but the facts are difficult to come by as truth is in very short supply these days ...
     
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  38. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Ejection Handle Pulled

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    VAERS data comes with this disclaimer. It is a lot like the NASA reports. I can submit a NASA report that I hit a flock of flamingos after taking off from Greenland in my ultralight. Or I could submit that I jumped out of my airplane and managed to fall back into the cockpit on the way down, but ATC got mad at me for not reporting my change in altitude! I could also submit 1000 reports to VAERS that I got athlete's foot from the COVID vaccine.

    The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database contains information on unverified (*underline is from the original site) reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed vaccines. Reports are accepted from anyone and can be submitted electronically at www.vaers.hhs.gov.

    While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. Most reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind.
    Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:

    • Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
    • Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
    • The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
    • VAERS data are limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
    • VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.
     
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  39. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I am very pro-vaccine, and I don't think highly of anti-vaxers, but your story sounds so made up to me.
     
  40. Daleandee

    Daleandee Pattern Altitude

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    As Joey would say ... "Come on man! Here's the deal!" Why you wanna go and confuse the issue with facts? Who in their right mind mind would believe anything from CNBC? Oh wait ... :dunno:
     
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