Questions about STARS

Don Jones

Don Jones

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DJones
Tonight I have been studying arrival procedures prepping for the II ride and now I have a couple of questions. First, I have been unable to locate a STAR into PHX which does not say "turbojet or turbo-prop aircraft only". Is that common for larger airports? DFW stars do not have the same restriction. I can see why they wouldn't want slow a/c mixing it up with the jet traffic. Should most piston singles just expect vectors? I flew IFR into Chandler which is one of the outlying airports under the PHX class B, I filed to a fix on the arrival and as expected got a change to my routing from center, however once on with PHX and when I was able, requested direct CHD and got it. Do any of you routinely receive or request stars(or DP's for that matter) as part of your routing?
 
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I can quite honestly say that I have NEVER gotten a star, or gone someplace where it would have been the most appropriate means of arrival.

That having been said, I am aware of no overall restriction preventing piston singles from using a STAR.

Consider the PEBBS One arrival into Monterey California (http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0802/00271PEBBS.PDF). This star is situated such and has altitudes consistent with GA traffic. I have flown on V27 from SoCal to NorCal several times, and in this instance, it would probably be appropriate to file. I have observed, however, that many STARs start at 10,000 or 15,000 feet +, and as such are not really suited for most GA traffic.

~ Christopher
 
jwriteclub said:
I have observed, however, that many STARs start at 10,000 or 15,000 feet +, and as such are not really suited for most GA traffic.
Click to expand...

Altitudes are really only if you get a "descend via" clearance above and beyond the STAR. The individual restrictions (turbojet/turboprop only, etc..) are still on the STAR plate.

--Carlos V.
 
Places vary- if you are flying into the DFW area and you don't file a STAR, you'll get one anyway, nearly always. For many pairs, I can almost always predict what I'll get, although best not to get cocky, as they always surprise you then!
 
I suspect it depends largely on the facility and the traffic. Flying into Dallas Addison (KADS) I don't think I've ever gotten the STAR. Flying into Houston Hobby (KHOU) however I get the ROKIT 8 90% of the time.

With regard to flying a STAR into a busy airport in actual conditions, all hail WAAS GPS!!!
 
In Phoenix (KIWA) I never got one, now matter what direction I was coming from. In La Guardia we almost always came in on the NOBBI 3 (then 4, now 5). In Boston, only once have I gotten the Gardner 3 arrival. Seems like they only ever use the arrivals if they're going to need to sequence you in a certain speed and altitude at a certain point, but are too busy for vectors.
 
gibbons said:
I suspect it depends largely on the facility and the traffic. Flying into Dallas Addison (KADS) I don't think I've ever gotten the STAR. Flying into Houston Hobby (KHOU) however I get the ROKIT 8 90% of the time.

With regard to flying a STAR into a busy airport in actual conditions, all hail WAAS GPS!!!
Click to expand...

It really does vary depending on the facility and the arrival streams into the primary airport and satellite fields (essentially the finer points of the airspace). As Matt pointed out, if you operate at less than 250 knots bound for LGA, you'll be assigned the NOBBI5 which, between TRESA and HAARP intersections, keeps you 10 miles east of the RKA2 (turbojet) stream at the widest point of divergence. This is very important as it gives controllers (and pilots) about 45 miles to descend arrivals with greater than the minimum lateral separation while transitioning to vertical separation when the two streams meet at HAARP (HPN arrivals at ~3,000 feet, LGA arrivals a bit higher at ~5,000 feet).

Phoenix is making the transition (like many other large airports) towards RNAV STARs that allow controllers to issue "descend via" clearances which provide the necessary authorization for appropriately equipped aircraft to make the step downs per the charted altitudes on the RNAV STAR chart.

It appears PHX airspace just isn't set up to integrate prop/turboprop STARs to their long list of procedures. Instead, they'll simply keep you on your assigned route, break you off on a vector, or clear you to proceed to a different VOR or intersection. Coming from the N/NW, you could file the COYOT2 arrival, but if your filed cruise is below the minimum IFR altitude, just expect vectors. I know a guy that's a controller at P50 (Phoenix TRACON), I'm sure he'd be able to answer any of your questions as well.
 
jwriteclub said:
I can quite honestly say that I have NEVER gotten a star, or gone someplace where it would have been the most appropriate means of arrival.

That having been said, I am aware of no overall restriction preventing piston singles from using a STAR.

~ Christopher
Click to expand...


Coming into KRYY (NW of Atlanta) I've gotten BUNNI from the NNW or TRBOW from the SSE. Single engine at 8000' or lower enroute and lower on the arrivals. Going direct over ATL instead of TRBOW would have certainly been shorter, but there was probably traffic going south. No bigge, just a few more minutes of flying.
 
Don Jones said:
Tonight I have been studying arrival procedures prepping for the II ride and now I have a couple of questions. First, I have been unable to locate a STAR into PHX which does not say "turbojet or turbo-prop aircraft only". Is that common for larger airports?
Click to expand...
Yes -- at places like IAD, ATL, ORD, PIT, MEM, etc, you'll find most all the STARS are like that. They just don't have the same problems to solve with the little folks as they do with the big rigs.
Should most piston singles just expect vectors?
Click to expand...
Yes.
Do any of you routinely receive or request stars(or DP's for that matter) as part of your routing?
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STARS? No. DP's? Depends -- if there's a Vector SID (one of those with a whole bunch of VOR's but no routings), yes, you usually get them (saves a lot of talk). But you don't often get routing SID's in light planes. And approval to fly any ODP for that airport/runway is implicit in any IFR clearance you get, although not mandatory unless explicitly included in the clearance.
 
Ron Levy said:
And approval to fly any ODP for that airport/runway is implicit in any IFR clearance you get, although not mandatory unless explicitly included in the clearance.
Click to expand...

Glad I read this and went back to the AIM. For some reason I thought ODP's were manditory. Not so.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes -- at places like IAD, ATL, ORD, PIT, MEM, etc, you'll find most all the STARS are like that. They just don't have the same problems to solve with the little folks as they do with the big rigs.
Yes.
STARS? No. DP's? Depends -- if there's a Vector SID (one of those with a whole bunch of VOR's but no routings), yes, you usually get them (saves a lot of talk). But you don't often get routing SID's in light planes. And approval to fly any ODP for that airport/runway is implicit in any IFR clearance you get, although not mandatory unless explicitly included in the clearance.
Click to expand...

Interesting is that virtually all towered airports in Canada routinely issue you a DP. This is the only place I've ever been issued one.
 
gibbons said:
I suspect it depends largely on the facility and the traffic. Flying into Dallas Addison (KADS) I don't think I've ever gotten the STAR.
Click to expand...

Chip is my h e r o! Only guy I know that flies into KADS (D/FW area) and doesn't get the FINGR or JONEZ arrival. You are flyin IFR, right Chip :D

I almost always get a STAR and DP flying into or out of Addison. Part of it is I'm flying mid-teens to low flight levels. We do have prop DPs outta Addison.

I always get a STAR flying into Orlando area also LESSE ONE or somethin like that (I'd have ta check if you want the correct name). Seems with the current housing situation, a lot of things are gettin leased there <g>

I would think the biggest airports with the most traffic have the most arrivals and DPs. Never got one going into San Diego, although, I was ready for it. Maybe they just weren't used to seein a plane with props on the engines :goofy:

Best,

Dave
 
gibbons said:
Glad I read this and went back to the AIM. For some reason I thought ODP's were manditory. Not so.
Click to expand...

That is interesting. I have never had to fly the ODP here. The closest I ever came was in IMC, they told me to cross HAWKE (which is part of the odp) at or above 8000'. I had to tell them unable and asked if he wanted me to climb in the hold over hawke.(which is the odp) He said "oh, just do the best you can, give me best rate to 10000' "
I just laughed and told him he was getting all there was. I was flying a really doggy 180 hp Arrow that can't keep up with my Warrior in the climb
 
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gibbons said:
Glad I read this and went back to the AIM. For some reason I thought ODP's were manditory. Not so.
Click to expand...
They're only mandatory if they're included in the clearance, but you'd better flight plan your IFR departure carefully if you choose not to follow one when it's published for the airport/runway combination you're using. The USAF lost a C-130 with nine people aboard on the side of a mountain near Jackson Hole WY when the crew elected not to follow the published ODP one dark night back in 1996.

One of my favorite training scenarios is to have an IR trainee consider departing Cumberland MD (KCBE) on Runway 23 with a clearance "direct Grantsville VOR" and ask them how they'll do the departure. They usually say they'll climb to 400 AGL and turn right westbound direct GRV. "Congratulations -- you just died," I say, pulling out the sectional to show them the 3000-foot ridge they just hit, and then the ODP in the Terminal Procedures book that requires a climb to the south up to 3400 feet before turning on course. Never fails to impress them with the need to look for ODP's and/or the sectional whenever they're departing IFR.
 
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I'm a strong believer in ODPs; if you fly out of San Diego Gillispie or any of the other places down in a valley one has to circle over while climbing, it leaves a lasting impression. I've done it enough VMC to understand what not doing it can do to ya!

Still, if conditions are VMC, there's a great benefit to telling departure you are VMC and will take responsibility for terrain and traffic clearance. It can get you on course more quickly. North Las Vegas has an interesting DP if your headed East, Palm Springs and lots of other places. Out East, Charlottesville is an interesting ODP.

Best,

Dave

Best,

Dave
 
MSP approach was handing out STARs from FCM (the nearby reliever I'm based at) whenever you filed with an altitude at or above 7000 MSL. Seems they quit doing that last fall though. I never understood why the filed altitude mattered anyway since I was almost always held below the class B until well beyond it's boundaries.

And one thing about the STARs that I think is really stupid is that they all start with heading directly to the MSP VOR located at the big airport. When you get your takeoff clearance you get vectors that eventually take you to somewhere down the line on the STAR and more often than not before I got on a segment of the published STAR I was cleared direct to my destination or first FP route beyond the STAR.

Ron Levy said:
Yes -- at places like IAD, ATL, ORD, PIT, MEM, etc, you'll find most all the STARS are like that. They just don't have the same problems to solve with the little folks as they do with the big rigs.
Yes.
STARS? No. DP's? Depends -- if there's a Vector SID (one of those with a whole bunch of VOR's but no routings), yes, you usually get them (saves a lot of talk). But you don't often get routing SID's in light planes. And approval to fly any ODP for that airport/runway is implicit in any IFR clearance you get, although not mandatory unless explicitly included in the clearance.
Click to expand...
 
Dave Siciliano said:
North Las Vegas has an interesting DP if your headed East, Palm Springs and lots of other places.
Click to expand...

The Northtown 1. I flew that the first time at night, couldn't understand what the heck the point was of flying all the way out, then all the way back. Then I flew it a few days later during daylight...it suddenly made a lot more sense. After seeing that (and hearing about a plane a few years back that decided to ignore it, thus becoming a smoking hole in the ground) I fly the ODP any time the visibility or ceilings are less than almost perfect (or it's night).
 
I would say that DPs, particularly ODPs are quite common out west.

I do agree that on a nice day it can save you some time to depart VFR and pick up your clearance after getting to altitude in stead of flying the whole DP, but at night, if the weather is marginal or if I am even slightly unfamiliar with the area I fly the ODP.

~ Christopher
 
Stupid question from a non-IR pilot:

Does ODP = SID? I'm familiar with SIDS/STARS, but I've never heard of an ODP.
 
t0r0nad0 said:
Stupid question from a non-IR pilot:

Does ODP = SID? I'm familiar with SIDS/STARS, but I've never heard of an ODP.
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Nope, an ODP (Obstacle Departure Procedure) is a recommended procedure (unless specifically assigned the ODP in an ATC clearance) that can be followed for obstruction clearance and may be flown without an ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC. They're typically different for each runway. Jeppesen makes them real easy to read and find (right on the airport diagram) but NACO makes you look it up somewhere else you haven't looked in ages. Scroll up to post 14 to read more about the practical use of ODPs from Ron.
 
jwriteclub said:
I would say that DPs, particularly ODPs are quite common out west.

I do agree that on a nice day it can save you some time to depart VFR and pick up your clearance after getting to altitude in stead of flying the whole DP, but at night, if the weather is marginal or if I am even slightly unfamiliar with the area I fly the ODP.

~ Christopher
Click to expand...

Christopher: Maybe we're saying the same thing using different words, but on an IFR flight plan, one can tell departure they will take responsibility for terrain and traffic clearance while staying IFR. On clear days out of San Diego, Gillespie, for instance, I depart IFR and when I contact So Cal tell them it's VMC and I will take responsibility (as stated above) request direct (VOR on my filed route). This gets me going on course faster.

North Las Vegas departure thanked me for telling them and that allowed me to get right on course without flying the DP while remaining IFR.

I don't like departing VFR and picking up my IFR clearance enroute if in a very busy area (like under Class B) or if any IMC conditions are close by as I could have difficulty getting that clearance before approaching IMC conditions. Departing VFR can get you out faster, but if traffic or weather are issues, I wait for the clearance.

Best,

Dave
 
I guess we weren't saying the same thing, although I should probably revise my remarks to say that about the only place I do this is reno on a CAVU day. I am familiar with the terrain and can pick up my clearance with Oakland center over lake Tahoe.

I'll have to keep in mind an IFR departure where I do obstacle clearance, I guess it never really occured to me to do this.

~ Christopher
 
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