Question for taildragger drivers

Matthew

Matthew

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Matthew
I have zero experience in tailwheels but had an interesting takeoff in a 172 this weekend. I'm wondering how tailwheel training would have helped.

I went out to visit family the other day, landed at their local airport and the rwy was covered with hard packed snow. Temps were low teens and the tower said braking action had been reported as fair, winds calm. Landing was no problem, an easy landing and just coast along to slow down. I did test the brakes and I found there was some grip.

Takeoff, however, was different. There was a 7kt wind about 40deg off the left side (about 4kt xwind). Just before I rotated, I could feel the plane weathervane. Because of the lack of traction on the snow, this is the first time I've felt that happen. I had aileron correction in for the slight crosswind, but I didn't have the rudder correction to prevent the tail from starting to swing. Since that was happening just as I was starting to lift, I didn't bother to panic, I just took off.

I guess my question is - is this the type of thing that tailwheel training would prepare someone for? I know the slick runway aggravated the situation, but that's the first time I've taken off from anything other than a clean concrete/ashpalt or dry grass runway.
 
Yep, one thing TW training most definitely teaches you is use of the rudder.
 
Taildragger training will wake your feet up, and sleepy feet is exactly why you had this happen. But then, you already knew that when you asked the question.

In any airplane, the ailerons control the bank (and wind correction on such a takeoff) and the rudder points the nose. Trikes tend to make you lazy with pointing the nose because they tend to be "self righting." Taildragger training will make that gentle push with your feet second nature. You won't even think about it. When you see the nose wandering, you'll fix it.
 
Well, first of all, people who fly tailwheel airplanes are pilots, not drivers. :D

I don't think any tailwheel airplane compares to an airplane on ice (although people who've watched me land must wonder sometimes), so I don't know that you would gain any direct experience preparing you for your takeoff by having tailwheel experience. But I do suspect you might have been quicker to react and more comfortable in the situation.

That said, good job by flying the airplane and not letting the situation become a big problem.
 
Yes - you are absolutely right, PILOT, not driver.

I'm not going to take too much credit for salvaging a situation or preventing a problem. I was right at takeoff speed, the tires were being unloaded, but were still in contact with the ground when the tail began to swing. It was one of those things that I could feel happening, I knew immediately what it was, and just continued to takeoff.

Having never 'piloted' a t/w before, I know I haven't developed a sensitivity to anything like that. I've always been taught to use the ailerons to correct for x-wind during takeoff to prevent drifting across the runway, but that's the first time I've felt the tail twitch like that. As Ken said, the trikes self-correct to an extent so even though I may be correcting with rudder and not even been aware of it, I just haven't gotten the 'feel'.
 
At my home airport, one runway has been covered with patches of snow for over a month now. I've been flying my Cessna 140 as regularly as possible from this surface, and it's been interesting exploring the dynamics of landing on slick runways.

Even in the taildragger, keeping the airplane tracking down the runway in a crosswind can be difficult, because the plane wants to slip sideways on the snow. It seems there are two options:

1) Crab the aircraft into the wind to keep it on the centerline, allowing the wheels to skid on the snow
2) Keep the nose pointed down the runway and let your position drift away from the centerline.

I don't know if others would approve of my technique, but on patchy snow, I opt for technique 2. Even in fairly stiff crosswinds, I haven't found that I drift off center too much, and I'd much rather have the nose pointed down the runway when I hit a patch of bare pavement.

On takeoff, one way I've tried to minimize drift on the snow while keeping the nose pointed down the runway is to crank the ailerons into the wind as I accelerate, "leaning" the aircraft into the wind as soon as the aileron authority allows it. Similarly, on landing, I do the familiar "one point landing", banking into the wind with the nose pointed down the centerline (i.e., a "forward slip"). The result is touching down first on the upwind main, followed quickly by the other main and tailwheel (I'm generally a 3-point lander, unless I'm just playing around or showing off).

I don't see why this technique couldn't be adapted to tricycle aircraft, but I'd want to validate that with people who have landed tricycle gear aircraft. ;)
 
I think another good 'tip' when maneuvering an airplane on any sort of snow pack or ice is to assume your brakes are inop. Keep your feet completely off the brakes and maintain directional control with the rudders. A rolling tire provides 100% more traction than a sliding tire. It will also prevent a sudden jerk to one side if you happen to hit a patch of pavement or rough snow that provides traction.

I'm to the point now, after starting t/w training and especially after having the RV where 'we' have to replace the brakes, that I try to use the brakes as little as possible even on dry pavement. I try to only use the brakes when stopping at parking or to turn a very short corner. It helps keep my feet 'awake' as Ken mentioned and prevents dependency on brakes for times when you can't depend on them - ice, snow, heavy rain, broken brake line, etc. etc.

This might be common sense, but it wasn't common sense to me until I started t/w training in a plane with barely operable heel brakes and it just transferred over to the RV.
 
The difference in TW vs NW is that in a TW you are looking for that control ASAP because you need it, in a NW you just let the nose wheel do the work and don't correct until you need to. From almost everything I read, this is the biggest problem with NW to TW conversions, (being lazy with controls). Even though my Viking is not a TW I have to have constant input to keep it centered and cannot use the brakes until I am very slow. It put me into the correct frame of mind for TW instruction.

Dan
 
foka4 said:
Even in the taildragger, keeping the airplane tracking down the runway in a crosswind can be difficult, because the plane wants to slip sideways on the snow. It seems there are two options:

1) Crab the aircraft into the wind to keep it on the centerline, allowing the wheels to skid on the snow
2) Keep the nose pointed down the runway and let your position drift away from the centerline.
Click to expand...
This is the most direct answer to the original question, I believe...if the airplane loses traction and starts to weathercock, simply applying rudder to straighten it out isn't going to solve your problem if you're on a consistently slippery surface. You're going to move at an angle to the airplane's longitudinal axis, whether you crab the airplane and continue down the centerline or keep the airplane aligned with the centerline and drift to the side. And either one causes problems if you hit dry pavement again.

IMO, this is technically a preflight decision (go/no-go) decision more than an operational one...you need to decide whether the flight is worth the potential consequences of the loss of directional control. No, that's not quite correct...regardless of the importance of the flight, are you willing to accept the potential consequences of the loss of directional control?

On takeoff, one way I've tried to minimize drift on the snow while keeping the nose pointed down the runway is to crank the ailerons into the wind as I accelerate, "leaning" the aircraft into the wind as soon as the aileron authority allows it. Similarly, on landing, I do the familiar "one point landing", banking into the wind with the nose pointed down the centerline (i.e., a "forward slip"). The result is touching down first on the upwind main, followed quickly by the other main and tailwheel (I'm generally a 3-point lander, unless I'm just playing around or showing off).

I don't see why this technique couldn't be adapted to tricycle aircraft, but I'd want to validate that with people who have landed tricycle gear aircraft. ;)
Click to expand...
Yes, this technique would have the same effect in a tricycle-gear aircraft...in technical terms, it's called a "crosswind takeoff and landing technique".

Discussions of the "forward slip" vs "sideslip" terminology excluded ;)

Fly safe!

David
 
foka4 said:
At my home airport, one runway has been covered with patches of snow for over a month now. I've been flying my Cessna 140 as regularly as possible from this surface, and it's been interesting exploring the dynamics of landing on slick runways.

Even in the taildragger, keeping the airplane tracking down the runway in a crosswind can be difficult, because the plane wants to slip sideways on the snow. It seems there are two options:

1) Crab the aircraft into the wind to keep it on the centerline, allowing the wheels to skid on the snow
2) Keep the nose pointed down the runway and let your position drift away from the centerline.

I don't know if others would approve of my technique, but on patchy snow, I opt for technique 2. Even in fairly stiff crosswinds, I haven't found that I drift off center too much, and I'd much rather have the nose pointed down the runway when I hit a patch of bare pavement.
Click to expand...

Whether you are "drifting" or crabbing on the runway, you are sliding sideways and if you hit bare pavement a transient yaw towards the wind will occur. If you've drifted towards the downwind side that yaw will point you towards the center which seems like a good thing provided you don't overcorrect. OTOH, if the wind picks up and/or the runway is narrow you could easily run out of runway width before getting airborne.

On takeoff, one way I've tried to minimize drift on the snow while keeping the nose pointed down the runway is to crank the ailerons into the wind as I accelerate, "leaning" the aircraft into the wind as soon as the aileron authority allows it. Similarly, on landing, I do the familiar "one point landing", banking into the wind with the nose pointed down the centerline (i.e., a "forward slip"). The result is touching down first on the upwind main, followed quickly by the other main and tailwheel (I'm generally a 3-point lander, unless I'm just playing around or showing off).

I don't see why this technique couldn't be adapted to tricycle aircraft, but I'd want to validate that with people who have landed tricycle gear aircraft. ;)
Click to expand...

I've slid more than one airplane on a slick runway and IMO the key points are keeping the plane near the runway center to provide maximum room on either side and to use power to keep the airplane where you want it laterally, something you can only do if you crab while sliding.
 
I have scrupulously avoided doing more than taxiing on icy patches and have never dealt with snow or ice in a taildragger, but my answer is: yes and no.

"Yes", because due to lack of not traction (only powered wheels provide traction) but friction, your silly training wheel (sorry; I'm turning into a tailwheel snob) was suddenly rendered useless, so things got funny, requiring re-animation of the now-dormant feet. ;)

"No" because on ice, all bets are off. Ever since I started driving I've watched others and learned a bit myself about slippin' and slidin', and I've been reminded that even the world's largest, heaviest vehicles will slide on ice, at almost any speed. I've had cars slide away on slippery hills from almost a dead stop, and I've been on big ferry boats when they're being powered over ice floes ... stuff just will not stay put on ice. :D

So regardless of gear configuration or rudder work, slippery conditions require more foresight... starting with
deciding not to go for it. :D
 
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rottydaddy said:
"No" because on ice, all bets are off. Ever since I started driving I've watched others and learned a bit myself about slippin' and slidin', and I've been reminded that even the world's largest, heaviest vehicles will slide on ice, at almost any speed. I've had cars slide away on slippery hills from almost a dead stop, and I've been on big ferry boats when they're being powered over ice floes ... stuff just will not stay put on ice. :D
Click to expand...
Imagine, if you will, sliding about 30 yards across the ramp...sideways...in a King Air...

Told the pax to be careful walking to the terminal, 'cause it was kinda slick out there.
 
Matthew said:
I've always been taught to use the ailerons to correct for x-wind during takeoff to prevent drifting across the runway, but that's the first time I've felt the tail twitch like that.
Click to expand...

I find and was taught that if I am using the ailerons to correct for x-wind in take off or landing, that I would have to use opposite rudder to keep the nose straight. Side slip in other words.

Tail dragger's would definately be quicker on their feet though.....I sometimes can get a little lazy on the rudder (I'm being generous to myself here)

I like the idea of a little "rudder dance" as I am coming in on final just to wake the feet up.
 
sheldon957 said:
I find and was taught that if I am using the ailerons to correct for x-wind in take off or landing, that I would have to use opposite rudder to keep the nose straight. Side slip in other words.

Tail dragger's would definately be quicker on their feet though.....I sometimes can get a little lazy on the rudder (I'm being generous to myself here)

I like the idea of a little "rudder dance" as I am coming in on final just to wake the feet up.
Click to expand...

I really don't think too much about the rudder when I have the ailerons rolled over for x-wind correction on the takeoff roll. I think that's a case where my feet are doing what's necessary without my brain having to tell them. For that, I have to thank my primary CFI for all that x-wind practice we did. But, as other posters have said, lazy feet are something you can't have with a tailwheel, but you can get away with, to a certain extent, on a nose wheel.

The "rudder dance" is something I do, too, on final. I also do the "finger wiggle" to make sure I don't have a deathgrip on the yoke ('steering wheel' for you tail-wheel pilots).
 
MauleSkinner said:
Imagine, if you will, sliding about 30 yards across the ramp...sideways...in a King Air...

Told the pax to be careful walking to the terminal, 'cause it was kinda slick out there.
Click to expand...

Done that! Down in Rockland we have to make a pretty quick 180 degree turn from the taxiway into our parking spot. One of those lovely winter days that Rockland cooked up for us we did just that. It was one of those days when you hit the toe brakes and the plane accelerates. Differential power got us rotated about 90 degrees, then we translated probably 40-50 feet sideways before we were able to get enough reverse thrust to actually stop the aircraft. There've been at least four times that I can think of that we would have ended up in the grass in Rockland if not for reverse. It's fun watching the people trying to walk to the terminal after that :rofl:.

[/hijack]
 
MauleSkinner said:
Imagine, if you will, sliding about 30 yards across the ramp...sideways...in a King Air...

Told the pax to be careful walking to the terminal, 'cause it was kinda slick out there.
Click to expand...

In conditions like that, you gotta appreciate beta and reverse pitch. Without them in my Baron there are times when the brakes won't even hold with the engines at idle, let alone at runnup RPM. In those conditions you just never point the airplane at anything you don't want to hit until you kill the engines and never, ever expect to stop on a downhill slope, engines running or not.
 
lance you have beta in the baron?

edit: nevermind, reread
 
tonycondon said:
lance you have beta in the baron?

edit: nevermind, reread
Click to expand...

I've had to use "reverse thrust" in the Baron more than once. Since there's no such position on the prop control that entails spinning the airplane 180 degrees and arresting the backwards slide with power.
 
lancefisher said:
I've had to use "reverse thrust" in the Baron more than once. Since there's no such position on the prop control that entails spinning the airplane 180 degrees and arresting the backwards slide with power.
Click to expand...

Are there any FARs about doing donuts in an airplane? :)
 
lancefisher said:
I've had to use "reverse thrust" in the Baron more than once. Since there's no such position on the prop control that entails spinning the airplane 180 degrees and arresting the backwards slide with power.
Click to expand...

Man, Lance would be the star of the show if he'd show up at one of those drifter events where the Japanese car guys fishtail their 800 hp Supras around corners. He could come barrelling around the corner in the Baron with the inside engine running backwards (some timing adjustment required, for sure), punch the gas on the straight, and do a Bob Hoover snap roll on takeoff. The crowd would LOVE it!
 
lancefisher said:
In conditions like that, you gotta appreciate beta and reverse pitch. Without them in my Baron there are times when the brakes won't even hold with the engines at idle, let alone at runnup RPM. In those conditions you just never point the airplane at anything you don't want to hit until you kill the engines and never, ever expect to stop on a downhill slope, engines running or not.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but it's tough to do a runup in beta or reverse ;)

A lot of people argue that there's no need for reversers on a jet, because "if you need them to stop on the runway, you shouldn't land there anyway". Remember how the taxiways used to be headed down the hill from Regent at STP? I had several times when the runway was clean and dry, but I wouldn't have done that taxi without TR's.

Fly safe!

David
 
foka4 said:
Man, Lance would be the star of the show if he'd show up at one of those drifter events where the Japanese car guys fishtail their 800 hp Supras around corners. He could come barrelling around the corner in the Baron with the inside engine running backwards (some timing adjustment required, for sure), punch the gas on the straight, and do a Bob Hoover snap roll on takeoff. The crowd would LOVE it!
Click to expand...

that mental image is priceless. hell just the mental image of lance spinning the baron around on ice and then flooring it was enough.
 
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