Question bout "free" lessons...

cleared4theoption

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jeremy
Question about "free" lessons...

Let's say I get my CFI ticket and own my own plane. Can I "give" someone free lessons? Is there anything not legal (per the FAA) about that? Would it be legal if the student paid half of the gas?
 
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You can give free lessons if you want. No law against that. If you are using your own plane, there is no law against THAT either, that I am aware of. Thing is, your insurance will go through the roof if you do that.
 
Re: Question about "free" lessons...

Let's say I get my CFI ticket and own my own plane. Can I "give" someone free lessons? Is there anything not legal (per the FAA) about that? Would it be legal if the student paid half of the gas?
Jeremy, I live in Oakwood, and will be closing on a house in Flowery Branch this week (if the bureaucracy would ever let up), and I would LOVE for someone to train me free. I have a Sport Pilot Student Certificate, and joined EAA 690 (Lawrenceville) in December (was a prior EAA 241 member in IL, but moved a couple times, let my EAA lapse, and just got back into it).

Even if it wasn't free, any way that I could save money would be GREAT. We're buying the house now, so funds will be tight until we get everything fixed up, but once that's done, I would LOVE to fly with you.

And if your plane isn't a LSA, that's fine with me, too. If I'm flying, learning, I don't care if I solo right away. I can always wait until I can afford to rent an LSA.
 
You can give free lessons if you want. No law against that. If you are using your own plane, there is no law against THAT either, that I am aware of. Thing is, your insurance will go through the roof if you do that.

Not always, not if you have 5 or less students in your own plane in process at a time. You get that on your typical Business/Personal policy if you are a CFI with no extra premium.
 
Re: Question about "free" lessons...

Let's say I get my CFI ticket and own my own plane. Can I "give" someone free lessons? Is there anything not legal (per the FAA) about that?
No FAA issue there.

Would it be legal if the student paid half of the gas?
Receiving any amount of compensation (and "half the gas" constitutes "compensation") brings 91.409(b ) into play, and that will require that 100-hour inpections be conducted as well as annuals. That's the only additional FAA requirement.

And as Greg said, insurance is a whole 'nother issue, but not one in which the FAA is involved.
 
Not always, not if you have 5 or less students in your own plane in process at a time. You get that on your typical Business/Personal policy if you are a CFI with no extra premium.
I just checked mine, and it has no such rider. Neither has any of the policies I've had for the last 20 years with several different underwriters. They've all specifically prohibited giving training in the plane to anyone but Fran, who was a named pilot and named insured on the policy. But maybe you get some special policy somewhere to cover your instructing activities like that.
 
If you are renting the plane to the student, yes.
The FAA doesn't separate payment for the instructor from payment from the plane when both are provided by the same party. That party is receiving compensation for providing training in an aircraft which s/he provides, and that triggers the 100-hour requirement. No doubt this is to avoid quibbles over whether the money is for the plane or for the instructor.
 
I just checked mine, and it has no such rider. Neither has any of the policies I've had for the last 20 years with several different underwriters. They've all specifically prohibited giving training in the plane to anyone but Fran, who was a named pilot and named insured on the policy. But maybe you get some special policy somewhere to cover your instructing activities like that.

Did you ask? That was the deal I was running into trying to let Marty use it.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I'm not a CFI yet, I don't even have my SEL...just a student pilot now. I am also about to start school for my A&P. My goal is, eventualy, to have my A&P and my CFI and my own aircraft. I want to work full time as an A&P and instruct free-lance on the side. I have a very dear relative that I promised I would some day teach to fly...thus the question.

Thanks again.
 
I give 1 hour of free training in my airplane to anyone why buys my hotel pens for $300 each. I save a ton on 100 hour inspections.
 
Pilots are allowed to share expenses, so 'half the gas' would fall into that category (half of total operating expenses, not just gas, are fair game). What you are doing during the flight (sightseeing or instruction) is up to you.
As long as you, the insured, are acting as PIC, there is no insurance impact. However if you ever want to solo your 'student', that opens a whole new can of worms - both the student paying for the plane (no longer sharing), and insuring a student pilot for solo flight.
One option is: if your student buys a share of the plane, he/she can fly it as an owner, not a renter. But the insurance will definitely go up to cover a student pilot.
Selling $300 pens (or anything else) which include a 'free' flight lesson sounds good, but won't hold legal water if the feds find out (i.e. in case of an incident or accident) and want to pursue it . :eek:
 
Pilots are allowed to share expenses, so 'half the gas' would fall into that category (half of total operating expenses, not just gas, are fair game). What you are doing during the flight (sightseeing or instruction) is up to you.
Not correct. If you're giving training in an aircraft you provide, and you are receiving anything of value in return, the 100-hr is required.

As long as you, the insured, are acting as PIC, there is no insurance impact.
Again, not true. Every business/personal policy I've seen excludes giving training to others not on the policy without regard for payment.
Selling $300 pens (or anything else) which include a 'free' flight lesson sounds good, but won't hold legal water if the feds find out (i.e. in case of an incident or accident) and want to pursue it . :eek:
Correct. And neither will telling them you were sharing expenses while giving training.
 
I'm taking a stab at it here. How about having your student pay for the 100 hour inspection, and pay the difference in cost on your insurance policy, and then give them free lessons.
 
I'm taking a stab at it here. How about having your student pay for the 100 hour inspection, and pay the difference in cost on your insurance policy, and then give them free lessons.

The greatness of that deal depends on how much the student flies the plane compared to total hours. If he's paying for a 100 inspection and only logging 5 hours it's a bad deal for the student. If, however, he's flying 95 of those hours then it's a great deal.
 
The greatness of that deal depends on how much the student flies the plane compared to total hours. If he's paying for a 100 inspection and only logging 5 hours it's a bad deal for the student. If, however, he's flying 95 of those hours then it's a great deal.

I do not know the cost of these inspections. But, I am guessing an 100 hour inspection is maybe in the $1000 to $1500 range. Insurance, no idea? I am going to tack on $3000 for the extra cost of insurance. So, my SWAG of $4500. Less than the cost of a PPL. And, this now allows money to be made with other students(paying students). Win win situation.
 
I do not know the cost of these inspections. But, I am guessing an 100 hour inspection is maybe in the $1000 to $1500 range. Insurance, no idea? I am going to tack on $3000 for the extra cost of insurance. So, my SWAG of $4500. Less than the cost of a PPL. And, this now allows money to be made with other students(paying students). Win win situation.
If you add this one student as a named pilot/insured on the policy, that's one thing. If you start bringing in a bunch more students, that's another, much more expensive thing.

What started as a simple question has been significantly complicated by the various suggestions. The original question was whether there are any FAA issues involved in giving free training to someone, and the answer is no. As soon as the first penny changes hands, 100-hour inspections are required. That's the end of the FAA issues.

OTOH, insurance (which the original post did not address) is a more complicated subject. In general, the standard business/personal use policy does not allow the policy-holder to give training to third parties. Adding one student to such a policy, and giving that student free training isn't a big deal. Once you start adding multiple students and/or charging for the training, you move out of business/personal use coverage and into some version of commercial coverage, which is significantly more expensive.

Also, when you start adding students, you can reach the point of having the appearance of operating a business, and that brings in any number of state/local business license/tax issues as well as airport rules on flight training operations and other on-field businesses.
 
If you have one student on the insurance policy. Let us just say a good friend. Would said friend contributing money to the insurance be a trigger for needing the 100 hour?
 
If you have one student on the insurance policy. Let us just say a good friend. Would said friend contributing money to the insurance be a trigger for needing the 100 hour?

Sell the student a share of the plane for a dollar. Let him pay for the delta to make him a named insured. Now you're training your partner for free, he's providing the airplane, and covering his own risk.
 
If you have one student on the insurance policy. Let us just say a good friend. Would said friend contributing money to the insurance be a trigger for needing the 100 hour?
I suspect the FAA would see it as exchanging money for training in an aircraft provided by the instructor, and that would mean 100-hour required. I would most definitely advise against trying it without the 100-hour without something in writing from the Chief or Regional Counsel saying otherwise.
 
Only because this seems not to far off the original post

Hypothetically, this possibility may become reality:

A friend's Great Uncle, has an airplane. For what ever the reason is, he can not fly anymore. If I was able to obtain the plane for training, what would be involved? I would not take ownership. More or less borrowing, and maintaining. Also, would a couple other people be able to use this aircraft in order to share the expenses?
 
Hypothetically, this possibility may become reality:

A friend's Great Uncle, has an airplane. For what ever the reason is, he can not fly anymore. If I was able to obtain the plane for training, what would be involved? I would not take ownership. More or less borrowing, and maintaining. Also, would a couple other people be able to use this aircraft in order to share the expenses?
Without a 100-hour? Sure, as long as neither you nor your friend's Great Uncle are providing the training.
 
Without a 100-hour? Sure, as long as neither you nor your friend's Great Uncle are providing the training.

Regardless, I would want the 100 hour. I do not know how long the plane has been sitting. I don't even know what it is yet.

My friend has no interest in flying. This would be me, and just a couple others looking for a plane to use for training. Then finding a qualified instructor to teach us. Since myself, or no one else would be the owner of the plane, how would we obtain the legal responsibility of it? I wouldn't want the owner to have to worry any issues.
 
Quack, quack.

I agree that this could look like a way around the regs IF in context it looks like the partnership was only for training.

But I'm aware of folks who have partnerships in airplanes where one party owns 99.99% of the airplane, and the other owns .01%, and both pay the "partnership" a rate for the operation of the airplane. I was in one of those arrangements. If the the partnership will be a long one (with a friend), I think it would pass the duck test, where bringing on students as "partners" and then ending the partnership as soon as the training is complete would not pass the duck test.
 
How does this all relate to the much more common scenario for multiple owners where an LLC owns the aircraft, and owners actually own shares of the Corporation?

The Corporation is providing the aircraft to whomever flies it under all possible scenarios.
 
Regardless, I would want the 100 hour. I do not know how long the plane has been sitting. I don't even know what it is yet.
In that case, I'd agree with a real good look-over and probably an annual before any flight. But 100 hours later, if Uncle John is providing the training and the airplane, and the trainees are paying for it, it will require a 100-hour inspection.

My friend has no interest in flying. This would be me, and just a couple others looking for a plane to use for training. Then finding a qualified instructor to teach us. Since myself, or no one else would be the owner of the plane, how would we obtain the legal responsibility of it? I wouldn't want the owner to have to worry any issues.
Not much way for the registered owner to avoid being a target for a liability suit if anything bad happens during such an operation, short of some sort of lease arrangement where all operational control is assumed by the lessee (you).
 
How does this all relate to the much more common scenario for multiple owners where an LLC owns the aircraft, and owners actually own shares of the Corporation?

The Corporation is providing the aircraft to whomever flies it under all possible scenarios.
As long as the corporation isn't providing the training, then 100-hour inspections aren't required.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I'm not a CFI yet, I don't even have my SEL...just a student pilot now. I am also about to start school for my A&P. My goal is, eventualy, to have my A&P and my CFI and my own aircraft. I want to work full time as an A&P and instruct free-lance on the side. I have a very dear relative that I promised I would some day teach to fly...thus the question.

Thanks again.

I think you are my distant relative. My Mom said I have a long lost cousin.
 
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