Question about ice protection on airliners

[Matthew]

The talk lately has been about the accident in Buffalo and whether it was icing related.

Ice has been a factor in many GA or commuter accidents - I remember going to the Kansas/Oklahoma State basketball game in Lawrence a few years ago. This was either OSUs first or second game after an ice related accident killed many of their players and support staff. I don't think I'll ever forget all the empty chairs at the end of their bench.

I know ice has been a factor in airline accidents, too. I remember watching the news when the plane went into the Potomac. But I think that was due more to the buildup that happened while it was on the ground.

I've seen boots, TKS, and heating elements on GA and commuter aircraft, but not on passenger airliners. They have to fly through the same stuff on the climb and descent, but what do they do for the ice? Are they just not in the icing conditions long enough for it to be a problem?

 

[ScottM]

I've seen boots, TKS, and heating elements on GA and commuter aircraft, but not on passenger airliners. They have to fly through the same stuff on the climb and descent, but what do they do for the ice? Are they just not in the icing conditions long enough for it to be a problem?

turbo jets use heated leading edges from the engine bleed air.

 

[nyoung]

A different comment on this same subject... After reading the Q400/Buffalo transcript. It got me thinking about ice protection for turboprops. As the original poster noted, ice has been the cause of several high profile commuter accidents. Most of these aircraft use boots for wing and tailplane de-icing.

I have quizzed the pilots of many TKS-equipped GA planes (Mooneys, Cirrus, etc). They rave about the ice protection and the great job TKS does keeping nearly the entire airframe and windscreen ice free.

I wonder if the commuter turboprop manufacturers will borrow a page from GA, and newer designs might switch to TKS-like systems?

 

[jesse]

I have quizzed the pilots of many TKS-equipped GA planes (Mooneys, Cirrus, etc). They rave about the ice protection and the great job TKS does keeping nearly the entire airframe and windscreen ice free.

You haven't quizzed enough owners -- TKS is not the ultimate answer and has it's disadvantages the same as boots do.

The airliners--with their heated leading edge from bleed-air have a far better solution.

This wasn't a situation where the airplane was poorly equipped for icing situations as much as it was a situation where the pilots had an attitude that they could fly through any ice without paying much attention to it. This is very clear in the CVR.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I wonder if the commuter turboprop manufacturers will borrow a page from GA, and newer designs might switch to TKS-like systems?

Wing deice boots, heated windshields and deice boots on the props as well as inlet anti-ice have worked well for years, when properly used.

 

[Everskyward]

You haven't quizzed enough owners -- TKS is not the ultimate answer and has it's disadvantages the same as boots do.

The airliners--with their heated leading edge from bleed-air have a far better solution.

I have flown airplanes with boots (King Air), bleed air (Lear, Sovereign) and TKS (Hawker) and I preferred the bleed air by far to the others but I also preferred boots to TKS.

This wasn't a situation where the airplane was poorly equipped for icing situations as much as it was a situation where the pilots had an attitude that they could fly through any ice without paying much attention to it. This is very clear in the CVR.

I don't think it was so much the ice that was the problem, although it could have accentuated it. The real problem was that they got too slow without noticing then had the wrong reaction to the shaker and the pusher.

 

[nyoung]

I have flown airplanes with boots (King Air), bleed air (Lear, Sovereign) and TKS (Hawker) and I preferred the bleed air by far to the others but I also preferred boots to TKS.

I am curious - can you share why you prefered boots to TKS?

 

[poadeleted20]

TKS isn't real good about removing ice once it's formed. Also, you are fluid-limited, and the fluid takes up space and weight which could be put to more profitable uses.

 

[Everskyward]

I am curious - can you share why you prefered boots to TKS?

What Ron said. Plus, the holes can get plugged up, the pump may not be that effective and it sometimes requires quite a bit of lead time to get the fluid flowing out the holes. TKS fluid is also sticky, messy and gets all over things.