PTS emergency descent...how?

[GCA319]

Slips and spirals both work nicely depending on the scenario. IMO slips are better because it is easier to remain stabilized in the decent which is incredibly important when you have a distraction such as a fire.

 

[EdFred]

[joking]
Just put it in a spin, and bring 'er down that way.
[/joking]

 

[LDJones]

Slips and spirals both work nicely depending on the scenario. IMO slips are better because it is easier to remain stabilized in the decent which is incredibly important when you have a distraction such as a fire.

The other advantage of a slip is redirecting flames away from cabin.

 

[FlyingJ]

Depends on the situation. Engine fire seems to have its own procedure.

This is what i practiced last summer for emergency descent (smoke in cabin, medical emergency, etc.) in a 172.

- Power to idle (don't forget carb heat)
- If necessary, pitch up to decrease airspeed to top of white arc
- Full flaps
- Execute spiral descent (bank angle 30 deg)
- maintain speed at top of white arc
- Descend to desired altitude

You descend pretty quickly, can be uncomfortable on your ears.

I asked about landing but that remained vague. Have a suitable spot picked out at or near your descent - tell the examiner that is where you would try to land if you had to. Be ready to talk him through the forced landing procedure, squawk code, radio calls.

The maneuver does need to be practiced before the test.

 

[Jaybird180]

Depends on the situation. Engine fire seems to have its own procedure.

This is what i practiced last summer for emergency descent (smoke in cabin, medical emergency, etc.) in a 172.

- Power to idle (don't forget carb heat)
- If necessary, pitch up to decrease airspeed to top of white arc
- Full flaps
- Execute spiral descent (bank angle 30 deg)
- maintain speed at top of white arc
- Descend to desired altitude

You descend pretty quickly, can be uncomfortable on your ears.

I asked about landing but that remained vague. Have a suitable spot picked out at or near your descent - tell the examiner that is where you would try to land if you had to. Be ready to talk him through the forced landing procedure, squawk code, radio calls.

The maneuver does need to be practiced before the test.

In the C172, you can do 1 notch of flaps at 110KIAS which is above the white arc. It will help you slow to top of arc a little faster, then you can give it full flaps.

 

[jconway2002]

Depends on the situation. Engine fire seems to have its own procedure.

This is what i practiced last summer for emergency descent (smoke in cabin, medical emergency, etc.) in a 172.

- Power to idle (don't forget carb heat)
- If necessary, pitch up to decrease airspeed to top of white arc
- Full flaps
- Execute spiral descent (bank angle 30 deg)
- maintain speed at top of white arc
- Descend to desired altitude

You descend pretty quickly, can be uncomfortable on your ears.

I asked about landing but that remained vague. Have a suitable spot picked out at or near your descent - tell the examiner that is where you would try to land if you had to. Be ready to talk him through the forced landing procedure, squawk code, radio calls.

The maneuver does need to be practiced before the test.

Thanks. From what I have been reading this seems like what the DPE is probably going to be looking for. I have never done this procedure before, but I have the airplane on Sunday (the day before my checkride), so hopefully that will be enough practice...

 

[bobmrg]

Thanks. From what I have been reading this seems like what the DPE is probably going to be looking for. I have never done this procedure before, but I have the airplane on Sunday (the day before my checkride), so hopefully that will be enough practice...

The examiner is going to be looking for the procedure in the Airplane Flying Handbook...that is his/her guidance on performing maneuvers.

Bob Gardner

 

[Flyguy12351]

I received CFI training at comair flight academy. They have flight standards binders for every aircraft. Each maneuver is described in text and also a profile view. This binder describes every maneuver that I will teach to students. The emergency descent is described as a descent at yellow line with no flaps, power idle carb heat on and turn if needed. As an example the c-152 descent would be at 111 knots, the c-172 at 127 knots. I was also taught this back when I went for my private in 1984. It makes sense to me. Any suggestions?

 

[AcroGimp]

The AFM/POH should have an emergency descent procedure, in the A-36 it was prop full forward, power idle, gear out and maintain the green triangle at 156 KIAS if I remember right. When you push over for maintaining that speed it is damn impressive and I recall between 2-3K FPM.

For the COMM-ASEL ride I had to fly the book procedure, anything else would have been a bust with that DE.

You do what the book says, and in the absence of a specific procedure in the book you go to the AFH guidance posted above.

'Gimp

 

[jesse]

The AFM/POH should have an emergency descent procedure, in the A-36 it was prop full forward, power idle, gear out and maintain the green triangle at 156 KIAS if I remember right. When you push over for maintaining that speed it is damn impressive and I recall between 2-3K FPM.

For the COMM-ASEL ride I had to fly the book procedure, anything else would have been a bust with that DE.

You do what the book says, and in the absence of a specific procedure in the book you go to the AFH guidance posted above.

'Gimp

What he says. It's critically important that you know all the procedures published in the AFM/POH for the CFI checkride. You teach NOTHING but precisely what those procedures say. If it's not in the AFM/POH then you teach whatever else you can find that the FAA has published. I reviewed EVERY advisory circular. You only teach something that you came up with or someone else came up with IF it's not in the AFM/POH or in *ANY* FAA published material.

For the purposes of the CFI checkride it doesn't matter if you know a better way. For the purposes of the real world after the checkride teach what works the best.

 

[hook_dupin]

The examiner is going to be looking for the procedure in the Airplane Flying Handbook...that is his/her guidance on performing maneuvers.

Bob Gardner

The whole issue is that the AFH doesn't give a procedure, it really gives three and says "...as recommended by the manufacturer." Many of the manufacturers don't actually recommend anything, so which procedure should the student know?

This seems to be very examiner dependent. I teach what the DPE wants to see, and then explain the other two methods.

 

[Meliss]

For my ASES checkride, I had never done one nor been trained on how to do one until the day of the check ride - my examiner essentially told me what he wanted to see and I did that. [power idle, 45 degree bank, pitch down to within 10kts of yellow, and level off smoothly at the altitude he wanted]

Recently, for my AMEL checkride, we practiced Emergency Descents with gear down, power at idle, 20 degrees bank and 20 degrees pitch down. On my checkride my examiner wanted to see it demonstrated without any bank. If I were you, I would call my CFI and clarify with him/her. Also as others have mention read the Airplane Flying Handbook's procedure on it! Good luck!

 

[Timmer]

[power idle, 45 degree bank, pitch down to within 10kts of yellow, and level off smoothly at the altitude he wanted]

That's what I was taught. I love this maneuver!

 

[Gucci Pilot]

I can't remember doing emergency descents on my initial ppl, ASEL, but I definitely remember doing them on the seminole for AMEL.

What I remember is:
Mixture/props full forward
Throttles Idle
Gear down (stability?)
Cowl flaps closed
Dive at max gear down airspeed
While diving, do shallow s turns to watch for traffic.

It's been so long I don't remember exactly, but the goal was to lose altitude as quick as possible. What I said above might be very wrong from what Iremember, so take with a grain of salt.

Thats exactly how I did it for my Comm. multi. I think you would get down faster leaving the flaps up and pitching for Vne(in smooth air)

 

[James331]

Emergincy decent.

Fixed prop

Power idle
Pitch for just shy if VNE
NO TURNS, don't load the plane up.

Be sure to use your mixture to try to keep the shock cooling to a minimum. (1degree per 2 seconds max)

For a RG,
Same deal but slow to VLO
Drop gear
VLE
Same deal with no turns and keeping the heat in the engine.

Depending on the plane and prop, should yield near a mile a minute down.

 

[poadeleted20]

The whole issue is that the AFH doesn't give a procedure, it really gives three and says "...as recommended by the manufacturer." Many of the manufacturers don't actually recommend anything, so which procedure should the student know?

The one that works most effectively for that aircraft, and the applicant be able to explain why s/he selected it over the other two AFH-listed procedures. It's up to the instructor involved to work with the trainee so the trainee is appropriately prepared.

This seems to be very examiner dependent. I teach what the DPE wants to see, and then explain the other two methods.

The DPE should not "want" any method other than the method in the AFM/POH for aircraft used on the test . If there isn't one in that book, the DPE should be satisfied with any of the three methods in the AFH as long as it is appropriate to the aircraft involved and the applicant has reasonable support for why s/he chose it over the other two.

From the CP-Airplane PTS:

Task A: Emergency Descent (ASEL and ASES)​

References: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.​

Objective:​

To determine that the applicant:​

1. Exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the elements related to​

an emergency descent.​

2. Recognizes situations, such as depressurization, cockpit​

smoke and/or fire that require an emergency descent.​

3. Establishes the appropriate airspeed, ±10 knots, and​

configuration for the emergency descent.​

4. Exhibits orientation, division of attention, and proper​

planning.​

5. Maintains positive load factors during the descent.​

6. Maintains appropriate airspeed, +0/–10 knots, and levels off​

at specified altitude, ±100 feet.​

7. Completes appropriate checklists.

Note that there is no specific method or technique mentioned, just that it must be "appropriate" (with reference to the POH/AFM for the plane involved and the AFH) and executed within the specified tolerances for speed and altitude.

 

[hook_dupin]

The DPE should not "want" any method other than the method in the AFM/POH for aircraft used on the test .

Except that DPEs are human and have preferred techniques. I hate teaching to a DPE, but it's reality.

Thankfully, this is a small-potatoes issue. I've never had a student bust for emergency descents. Students should be aware that there are multiple techniques for some items and that the FAA publications are not necessarily complete in all areas.

 

[nosehair]

Except that DPEs are human

Who told you that?

 

[poadeleted20]

Except that DPEs are human and have preferred techniques. I hate teaching to a DPE, but it's reality.

I know what you mean, and I've trained folks for specific examiners before . But it doesn't change what, as I said, should be the case.

 

[jpower]

I think I posted this further up in the thread when it was active last time, but since there are some new faces here, I'll go ahead and post it again.

I took my private checkride just after the emergency descent portion was added, and my ride was the first the DPE had done in the type we were flying (Tecnam Eaglet) since the rules were changed. I demonstrated an emergency decent using the method I was taught, which was flaps up, 45-60 degree bank, right up against VNe. The plane comes down like a rock like that--we routinely pegged the VSI (or came close) to whatever the maximum was. He was entirely satisfied but asked if I wouldn't mind if he tried it "the other way" to see how the plane behaved, since this was his first time doing them in the Eaglet. Naturally I obliged, so he took control and did a flaps down spiraling descent at Vfe, and he only got about 1000 fpm, maybe a little more. If I ever found myself on fire, I'd want to come down faaaast, so I'm going at VNe unless there's a good reason not to.

 

[murphey]

The AFM/POH should have an emergency descent procedure, in the A-36 it was prop full forward, power idle, gear out and maintain the green triangle at 156 KIAS if I remember right. When you push over for maintaining that speed it is damn impressive and I recall between 2-3K FPM.

For the COMM-ASEL ride I had to fly the book procedure, anything else would have been a bust with that DE.

You do what the book says, and in the absence of a specific procedure in the book you go to the AFH guidance posted above.

'Gimp

I could find nothing for the cherokees other than the phrase "land as soon as possible" for any emergency including in flight fire. I'd be interested what would be appropriate emergency descent for a cherokee.

 

[jesse]

I could find nothing for the cherokees other than the phrase "land as soon as possible" for any emergency including in flight fire. I'd be interested what would be appropriate emergency descent for a cherokee.

For the purposes of the checkrides, there is absolutely no doubt, in this case you would refer to the airplane flying handbook.

An emergency descent is a maneuver for descending as rapidly as possible to a lower altitude or to the ground for an emergency landing. [Figure 16-6] The need for this maneuver may result from an uncontrol- lable fire, a sudden loss of cabin pressurization, or any other situation demanding an immediate and rapid descent. The objective is to descend the airplane as soon and as rapidly as possible, within the structural limitations of the airplane. Simulated emergency descents should be made in a turn to check for other air traffic below and to look around for a possible emergency landing area. A radio call announcing descent intentions may be appropriate to alert other aircraft in the area. When initiating the descent, a bank of approximately 30 to 45° should be established to maintain positive load factors (“G” forces) on the airplane.

Emergency descent training should be performed as recommended by the manufacturer, including the con- figuration and airspeeds. Except when prohibited by the manufacturer, the power should be reduced to idle, and the propeller control (if equipped) should be placed in the low pitch (or high revolutions per minute (r.p.m.)) position. This will allow the propeller to act as an aerodynamic brake to help prevent an excessive airspeed buildup during the descent. The landing gear and flaps should be extended as recommended by the manufacturer. This will provide maximum drag so that the descent can be made as rapidly as possible, with- out excessive airspeed. The pilot should not allow the airplane’s airspeed to pass the never-exceed speed (VNE), the maximum landing gear extended speed (VLE), or the maximum flap extended speed (VFE), as applicable. In the case of an engine fire, a high airspeed descent could blow out the fire. However, the weakening of the airplane structure is a major concern and descent at low airspeed would place less stress on the airplane. If the descent is conducted in turbulent conditions, the pilot must also comply with the design maneuvering speed (VA) limitations. The descent should be made at the maximum allowable airspeed consistent with the procedure used. This will provide increased drag and therefore the loss of altitude as quickly as possible. The recovery from an emergency descent should be initiated at a high enough altitude to ensure a safe recovery back to level flight or a precautionary landing.


When the descent is established and stabilized during training and practice, the descent should be terminated.

In airplanes with piston engines, prolonged practice of emergency descents should be avoided to prevent excessive cooling of the engine cylinders.

 

[murphey]

For the purposes of the checkrides, there is absolutely no doubt, in this case you would refer to the airplane flying handbook.

Thanks! I should re-read AFH every once in a while. Amazing how much new stuff is in there.

 

[coloradobluesky]

I think I'd cut the throttle, put on the carb heat and slip mine and dive, no flaps. For a checkride I'd pick a speed, 90 is good for my plane, which is above flap extention speed, so no flaps.

Thing is, there is a tradeoff. If you come in fast, you have to bleed speed to land. If you are high up, it makes more sense to come in faster because the time to come down vs the time to kill off speed ratio. If you spend a LOT of time coming down and just a little (comparitively) killing off speed, the high speed doesnt matter as much as if you are close to the ground where the coming down part and the killing off speed part are more equal. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Timmer]

Also keep in mind this maneuver is intended to get you down on the ground ASAP because burning up in the sky sucks. You won't be trying to make a great landing, just getting on the ground in the shortest amount of time possible, hopefully in such a manner than you can then get out of and away from the plane.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think I'd cut the throttle, put on the carb heat and slip mine and dive, no flaps. For a checkride I'd pick a speed, 90 is good for my plane, which is above flap extention speed, so no flaps.

Do you know if that's what it says in your POH/AFM? If there's nothing there, is that compatible with what it says in the AFH (quoted above)? If not, you could have a rough time if you did that on a practical test.

 

[coloradobluesky]

There is nothing in the POH

 

[poadeleted20]

There is nothing in the POH

Fine. Then is what you said compatible with the AFH, quoted above? And have you tried it both with and without flaps to see which gets you down faster -- Vfe with full flaps or Vne without flaps? And in light of the lack of mention of slipping in the AFH, how do you justify slipping rather than a steep spiral descent? Again, have you tested this to see which gets you down faster in your plane? Those are the questions I would expect an examiner to ask if your AFM/POH does not have a recommended maneuver, and you'd best have good answers for all of them, especially for a CFI practical test.

 

[nosehair]

And it's not always about getting down to land- right there.
When I'm stuck on top vfr, and I want to circle down thru a hole, it's full flaps and Vfe , or slower, to keep the radius tight.
Also can be handy on circling approaches in dicy conditions.

 

[Jaybird180]

Also keep in mind this maneuver is intended to get you down on the ground ASAP because burning up in the sky sucks. You won't be trying to make a great landing, just getting on the ground in the shortest amount of time possible, hopefully in such a manner than you can then get out of and away from the plane.

In which case VLe = VNe

 

[coloradobluesky]

What gets me down the fastest is Vne in a full slip. But I don't think I'd use that on a checkride. That may put a fire out though.

 

[poadeleted20]

And it's not always about getting down to land- right there.
When I'm stuck on top vfr, and I want to circle down thru a hole, it's full flaps and Vne, or slower, to keep the radius tight.
Also can be handy on circling approaches in dicy conditions.

While that might be an appropriate technique for that situation, it's not what the PTS Emergency Descent task is testing, which is getting down as fast as you can because you're on fire or something like that.

BTW, I think maybe you meant to say Vfe rather than Vne if you're descending with full flaps.

 

[poadeleted20]

What gets me down the fastest is Vne in a full slip. But I don't think I'd use that on a checkride. That may put a fire out though.

Understood, but the discussion has been about the practical test Emergency Descent task in the context of (IIRC) a CFI practical test, and that's where I've been coming from in this thread.

 

[nosehair]

While that might be an appropriate technique for that situation, it's not what the PTS Emergency Descent task is testing, which is getting down as fast as you can because you're on fire or something like that.

Where does it say that, specifically, in the PTS ? The AFH talks about both methods, with or without flaps,
slow or fast, turning or straight, depending on what is the emergency situation.

 

[nosehair]

What gets me down the fastest is Vne in a full slip. But I don't think I'd use that on a checkride. That may put a fire out though.

You really put in a FULL slip at Vne? That feels like it might bend something.

 

[jpower]

Understood, but the discussion has been about the practical test Emergency Descent task in the context of (IIRC) a CFI practical test, and that's where I've been coming from in this thread.

It was added into the PPL PTS sometime in the summer of 2012, I think, maybe late spring.

 

[flyingron]

In the old days, the proceedure was "steep spiral" on the commercial rather than emergency descent. Absent a POH procedure to the contrary, that should work. The only arguing point is whether it's better on a plane with a relatively low gear/flap extension speed like the Navion to hold off on slowing down first or not.

 

[Jaybird180]

It was added into the PPL PTS sometime in the summer of 2012, I think, maybe late spring.

When I took my checkride in May 2011, it only was part of the oral exam.

 

[eetrojan]

Fine. Then is what you said compatible with the AFH, quoted above? And have you tried it both with and without flaps to see which gets you down faster -- Vfe with full flaps or Vne without flaps? And in light of the lack of mention of slipping in the AFH, how do you justify slipping rather than a steep spiral descent? Again, have you tested this to see which gets you down faster in your plane? Those are the questions I would expect an examiner to ask if your AFM/POH does not have a recommended maneuver, and you'd best have good answers for all of them, especially for a CFI practical test.

Hi Ron, there's no emergency descent procedure in my plane's POH, but I was primarily taught to perform a straight or turning slip at Vne (or Va if turbulent) for that purpose, especially for a wing fire. I performed this maneuver during the checkride for a fire of unspecified location and the DPE was satisified.

Is there a reason, in your opinion, that the AFH suggests a steep spiral descent, and completely omits discussion of a straight or turning slip?

 

[James331]

Why do you guys want to do a steep spiral at vne? Are you angry at your airframe?

Go talk to a large drop zone.

Small turns, if needed, wings level, vne (or vle), try to keep the engine warm with mixture, cowl flaps etc.

Slips ain't going to help much, and a slip near vne is sure as heck not healthy for the airframe.

If a CFI was Doug steep spirals or slips at, or near, vne at my old school, he'd be toast and best not try to EVER use me as a reference.