PTK FBO - Urgent

EdFred

Taxi to Parking
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Feb 25, 2005
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White Chocolate
I gotta meet a guy at PTK in a coupe hours, just to drop off some stuff. Which FBO wont bend me over with fees. I probably won't even leave the ramp area.
 
N2212R said:
I gotta meet a guy at PTK in a coupe hours, just to drop off some stuff. Which FBO wont bend me over with fees. I probably won't even leave the ramp area.

I think they changed hands once or twice, but IFL East always treated me pretty good and they usually had the best fuel price on the field.
 
lancefisher said:
I think they changed hands once or twice, but IFL East always treated me pretty good and they usually had the best fuel price on the field.

The name is now PAC (pontaic air center) it's where I take my Citabra lessons at. Good place, nice people.... if you get gas harass the line guy (Nick?) he's got the lip ring... Tell him I miss him and if Gene would only stop canceling me I'll be there Tuesday or next Saturday... You may even get to see 5CW (the blue Citabra Carolyn had at MIO) on the ramp... tell the plane I miss it more then Nick.

Missa
 
$35 for a ramp fee - for 10 stinking minutes. I just drove and met the guy i needed to get the stuff to in Lansing.
 
N2212R said:
$35 for a ramp fee - for 10 stinking minutes. I just drove and met the guy i needed to get the stuff to in Lansing.

Thought it was waived for gas purchase tho... just buy some gas.

You could have also just met him somewhere in the north T hangers if you didn't need the building. Just tell them your going to Kilo row and park on the grass... your contact would need the gate code (last time I used it was the same as ground), Oh and there's a pilot shop on the north side too that may not have charged anything but I don't think they have gas or there are several non-controled feilds nearby that you could have used. There is no landing fee for GA aircraft at Troy, just don't buy the gas there $$ and sucky FBO's but you can park at the terminal build for free (or $15 overnight). Oakland SW is also close but I don't know the fees there.

Driving to lansing is just not as fun....

Missa
 
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Having never been to PTK, I wouldn't have known any of the codes, etc. So I would have HAD to use an FBO to get in and out. Nope, wasn't as fun.
 
N2212R said:
Having never been to PTK, I wouldn't have known any of the codes, etc. So I would have HAD to use an FBO to get in and out. Nope, wasn't as fun.

Well, had you asked more in advance I would have given you the keys to the castle! And really if PTK was convient (and lansing!) for the drop off, VLL or a multitude of other uncontrolled feilds would have been convient too... and had you come into Troy I would have come any taken you out to lunch too.

Missa
 
Reminds me of when St. Paul told me they would waive the ramp fee for a top off. I agreed and mentioned that the tanks really didn't need fuel.

They only were able to put about 4 gallons per tank in the C150. I'm sure the line guy loved me.
 
jangell said:
They only were able to put about 4 gallons per tank in the C150. I'm sure the line guy loved me.


Which is about all I would have needed with a 30kt tailwind to get there.
 
Re: PTK FBO -- Rant

This really ****es me off. Ed made a perfectly rational decision to drive because the FBO through whose gate he needed to walk wanted to charge an outrageous amount of money.

The practice results in less general aviation activity, less fuel sold and fuel taxes paid, and a pilot who is surely thinking to himself, "I'll never spend one cent in that s---hole."

Yes, I know there are reasons that FBO's feel they need to charge ramp fees. I just wish they'd realize that the practice is penny-wise and pound-foolish. The GA industry should not be the cause of its own demise.

Jon
 
Re: PTK FBO -- Rant

4CornerFlyer said:
This really ****es me off. Ed made a perfectly rational decision to drive because the FBO through whose gate he needed to walk wanted to charge an outrageous amount of money.

The practice results in less general aviation activity, less fuel sold and fuel taxes paid, and a pilot who is surely thinking to himself, "I'll never spend one cent in that s---hole."

Yes, I know there are reasons that FBO's feel they need to charge ramp fees. I just wish they'd realize that the practice is penny-wise and pound-foolish. The GA industry should not be the cause of its own demise.

Jon

I agree. At MillionAire in KSAF one time, I stopped there just to stretch my legs and meet someone. I was there for less than 15 minutes, but they still wanted to charge me a $20 ramp fee. I argued with them for a long time and they finally dropped it.

Needless to say, I'll never go back to any Millionaire if I can avoid it. The idea of charging someone to occupy unused asphalt for that little of a time is foolhearty. Santa Fe Jet Center (with its own problems) has gotten my business from then on, including a night where I got stuck due to weather about 4 months ago. They charged a ramp fee for the overnight, but I understand that one.
 
N2212R said:
Maybe I could start an anti-airnav type site

www.fbosthatsuckass.com

??

The worst one for me was Signature at Rochester MN. I have often flown there to pick up Airlifeline and Angel Flight passengers from my home base 60 NM north. Since I had burned little fuel on arrival I couldn't meet their requirement of a 20 gallon fuel purchase so I usually ended up paying a $25 ramp fee. I think there were a couple times that I would have been better off financially by topping the tanks and having them pump several gallons on the ground. Eventually that agreed to waive the ramp fee for charitable flights although for a while they required a fax from the arranging organization to confirm your mercy flight status.
 
lancefisher said:
The worst one for me was Signature at Rochester MN.

Signature? Ever since I've started flying from there it is Rochester Aviation. Did they just change their name? Or was there another FBO (not that I know of)

I've never had a problem there.. But then again it's different when you are renting their planes....Now only if I could get that line job there that I've been trying to get for a year now.......
 
Being on the FBO startup end of this situation has brought clearer insight as to why ramp fees are charged and from an FBO standpoint, it's not worthwhile. Here's why as we see it. To charge the ramp fee, unless it's an agreed upon situation where the FBO is designated for collecting fees set down by the municipality that is ultimately operating the airport, the FBO has to be leasing the tarmac space and the ramp fee is to cover that lease cost plus a small percentage for profit. Leasing ramp space that isn't going to be used by aircraft that are based at that FBO is a monetary waste since there is no guarantee a transient pilot is going to come in and park in those spots overnight, especially if the FBO isn't leasing all the ramp space at the airport. The ROI isn't really high enough to warrant the expense. Hangars are different as are covered areas. These are usually handled with relatively long-term leases and the ROI makes it worthwhile for the FBO.
 
T.D.

It doesn't matter how much the FBO pays to lease ramp space. If pilots find out that there is an exorbitant charge just to pull up on the ramp, then they just won't go there. In that case the FBO gets zero income and has alienated a potential customer to boot. Of course we all have our personal definitions of what consitutes exorbitant, but I think most of us flying decades-old singles would say $35 just to pick somebody up fits the bill. When Ed decides to drive rather than pay the $35, the FBO gets nothing, whereas without the fee they might have sold 8 gallons of fuel and even a candy bar.

I may be stretching things a bit, but can you imagine a retail store charging you just to come in and browse? I might go to a store without any intention of buying on the first trip, but if I like what I see, the next time I may come back with a wad of cash. Hitting me with a big ramp fee for a quick turn-around will not under any circumstances encourage me to support that business again, ever. That's analagous to Nick's experience at Santa Fe's Million Air.*

I would encourage y'all to post your fee ripoff experiences on Airnav's comments. Knowledge is power.

Jon

*I've had good experiences with Million Air at SAF, but I've only been there on overnight stays and bought fuel. They even give out free bottle of salsa. If I ever drop in for one of the awesome green chile cheeseburgers at SAF, I'll park at the Jet Center.
 
I've got no issues with an overnight fee. I've got no issues with a parking/tie-down fee. But a fee for being there 10 minutes and using NONE of their facilities? Give me a break. Oh wait, I guess I used their door because the rest of the airport is fenced off.
 
jangell said:
Signature? Ever since I've started flying from there it is Rochester Aviation. Did they just change their name? Or was there another FBO (not that I know of)

You know, the last time I was charged a landing fee there was back in 1998. The ownership and fee structure may have changed since. Then again my memory could be malfunctioning. In any case there was only one FBO AFaIK.
 
N2212R said:
I've got no issues with an overnight fee. I've got no issues with a parking/tie-down fee. But a fee for being there 10 minutes and using NONE of their facilities? Give me a break. Oh wait, I guess I used their door because the rest of the airport is fenced off.

$20 to drop someone at Austin tonight. I could have saved the fee with a topoff of $5.00 avgas. Let's see: 20 gallons of avgas at about $5.00/gal = $100. 20 gal of avgas at home for $3.70=$74.00 + $20 ramp fee. I still came out ahead.
 
Ah, Bill, you need to factor in the spite quotient.

$20 ramp fee equals $20 pure profit to the FBO while you receive no services at all.

The $24 difference in fuel between Austin and your home is not all going to the FBO, since some of it has to pay their cost of the gas.

Did you need to get 20 gallons to avoid the fee, or would a lesser amount of fuel sufficed?

Jon
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Ah, Bill, you need to factor in the spite quotient.

$20 ramp fee equals $20 pure profit to the FBO while you receive no services at all.

The $24 difference in fuel between Austin and your home is not all going to the FBO, since some of it has to pay their cost of the gas.

Did you need to get 20 gallons to avoid the fee, or would a lesser amount of fuel sufficed?

Jon

Actually, the $24 is pure profit to them. Their cost for avgas is the same or lower than home. I actually bought AvGas at LBX for $2.79 yesterday before I went up to Austin. So the real difference was $2.21 per gallon.

I think the deal is "topoff" to avoid the ramp fee. It would have been within a gallon or two of 20 to top it off. Even if I only bought 10 gallons, the $20 was more than covered with the gas bought at LBX.
 
wsuffa said:
Actually, the $24 is pure profit to them.
How much of that $24 goes to pay the $xx/sq ft lease that they're paying on that ramp space and how much empty ramp space are they leasing that the $24 helps to supplement because there are no other airplanes parked there? The return on investment isn't worth it and we'll never charge a ramp fee as the only ramp space we'll be leasing is where we'll be parking our own plane(s) just outside the hangar.
 
Bill, maybe I have just been lcky, as I have never been charged aramp fee at Trajen. Of course, I usually buy fuel. That might be it.

Back in August, I did not buy fuel, and was not charged a ramp fee. that might have been anomalous, though, because I did order a top-off and they plain forgot to do it. When they figured that out, I just said "it's OK, forget about it," because i was in a hurry and did not have any fuel issues. They may have been too embarrassed to ask for the fee, then.

Or, maybe the exceptionally attractive young lady at the counter was hoping I'd like her?

Naaa.
 
SCCutler said:
Bill, maybe I have just been lcky, as I have never been charged aramp fee at Trajen. Of course, I usually buy fuel. That might be it.

Big sign on the desk yesterday, Spike "Minimum fuel purchase (listed according to type), or Top-Off waives ramp fee"

SCCutler said:
Or, maybe the exceptionally attractive young lady at the counter was hoping I'd like her?
Yowza, our jaws dropped when we saw who met us on the ramp.
 
SCCutler said:
Bill, maybe I have just been lcky, as I have never been charged aramp fee at Trajen. Of course, I usually buy fuel. That might be it.

The ramp fee is new. It's still cheaper than $$ignature.

Or, maybe the exceptionally attractive young lady at the counter was hoping I'd like her?

Naaa.

I got the second shift. I can assure you that the second shift is not eye candy.

TDKendall said:
How much of that $24 goes to pay the $xx/sq ft lease that they're paying on that ramp space and how much empty ramp space are they leasing that the $24 helps to supplement because there are no other airplanes parked there? The return on investment isn't worth it and we'll never charge a ramp fee as the only ramp space we'll be leasing is where we'll be parking our own plane(s) just outside the hangar.

Well, this is a case of "no real competition". Austin has closed the GA reliever airports - the nearest are 20-25 miles away (Georgetown and San Marcos) - and despite a bill that passed the legislature 2 years ago, there has been no progress on a new airport. The only GA airport anywhere close to Austin is Lakeway. Lakeway is prohibited for night operations, it's privately owned and in the middle of a housing development. It really is not an option.

So, if you're going to the Austin area, it is KAUS/Bergstrom or nothing. Austin in not GA friendly.

$ignature is the only other FBO on the field, and their fees/fuel prices are significantly higher, and the quality of service is much, much lower.
 
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wsuffa said:
Well, this is a case of "no real competition".

I used to know a guy several years ago named Sonny Berry who AFaIK ran an FBO at AUS. I take it he's no longer involved with that?
 
Boy, am I spoiled.

There are four airports in the Madison area. Blackhawk, unfortunately, is probably going to close. It's dying slowly and the neighbors don't like it so they're letting their trees grow as high as possible, which continues to force the displaced threshold farther and farther down the runway. Not really much of an FBO, but there is parking. No ramp fees.

Waunakee is an airpark, homes down both sides of the runway. Garage on the street side, hangar on the airport side - Sure would be nice! Again, not really an FBO here, but there is parking, and... No ramp fees.

Morey ("Middleton Municipal/Morey Field" now) just got a new terminal building (opened this year), new 5000-ft runway with parallel taxiway, and has a ton of hangars being built. City built the airport, got grants, it's gonna be here for a good long time. It's managed by Rich Morey, the third generation. No ramp fees.

Dane County Regional/Truax Field is class C, 3 runways, 3 ILS approaches, all the bells and whistles, with only one FBO, Wisconsin Aviation. This is usually a formula for a whopper of a ramp fee, but... On the entry door on the ramp side of the building it says: "No ramp fees. We prefer to earn your business."

:)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Boy, am I spoiled.

There are four airports in the Madison area. Blackhawk, unfortunately, is probably going to close. It's dying slowly and the neighbors don't like it so they're letting their trees grow as high as possible, which continues to force the displaced threshold farther and farther down the runway.

I thought there was federally mandated protection against that sort of thing. IIRC there have been multiple court cases where the offending neighbors were required to trim their tree tops.
 
lancefisher said:
I thought there was federally mandated protection against that sort of thing. IIRC there have been multiple court cases where the offending neighbors were required to trim their tree tops.

Yes, but that requires somebody to sue...

There is an EAA chapter at Blackhawk, hopefully they will keep it afloat. However, both Madison and Morey have nice new terminal buildings (both <3 years old) and decent sized runways (5000 at C29, 5800, 7200 and 9000 at MSN) that are in great shape. They also both have rental cars and are very conveniently located. That's part of what's killing off Blackhawk, which has shorter, narrow runways that are in pretty bad shape, a very small cottage-like building, no line services, no ground transportation, is at least 5 miles from anything, etc.

I wonder if that is just leading people to not really care about the field? I did some pattern work there as a student but I haven't been back since. Also, since then, the FBO at MSN has stopped allowing flights there due to an incident between - you guessed it - one of their rental airplanes and a tree.

Does anybody know more about what can be done about these sorts of unfriendly airport neighbors?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Does anybody know more about what can be done about these sorts of unfriendly airport neighbors?

Legally, or quietly? ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Also, since then, the FBO at MSN has stopped allowing flights there due to an incident between - you guessed it - one of their rental airplanes and a tree.

While I'm not to fond of trivial lawsuits, I think it's too bad the FBO and/or pilot involved didn't sue the tree owner for creating a hazard to air navigation.
 
lancefisher said:
While I'm not to fond of trivial lawsuits, I think it's too bad the FBO and/or pilot involved didn't sue the tree owner for creating a hazard to air navigation.

Well... Let's just say it wasn't entirely the tree's fault.
 
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