Proposed Philadelphia Bravo Changes -- Meetings and Chart

Rob Schaffer

Rob Schaffer

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--->----> Click here for a PDF of the meeting schedule and Existing/Proposed Airspace Chart <-----<----

(Copied from the FAA Webpage)
Title: INFORMAL AIRSPACE MEETINGS
Topic: Possible Modifications to the Class B Airspace at Philadelphia (PHL), PA

Date and Time: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 , starting at 4:00 pm
Speaker(s): Multiple

Brief Description:
The FAA (Air Traffic) will hold informal airspace meetings regarding a study to consider modifying the PHL Class B Airspace area. Airmen can attend anyone of 6 identical meetings at New Castle Airport, New Garden Airport, Wings Field Terminal Building, Flying W Airport or Freefall Adventures Skydive School. Comments and written proposals will be accepted at each meeting. See the "Additional Event Information" for all locations and times.

Select Number: EA1735356

Sponsoring Division: FAASTeam & Air Traffic Organization

Contact Information: Hazen Briggs
Phone: (404) 305-5576
hazen.s.briggs@faa.gov

Additional Seminar Information & Acknowledgement of Industry Sponsor(s):

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) will hold informal airspace meetings regarding a study to consider modifying the Philadelphia Class B Airspace area.​

The purpose of the meeting is to solicit aeronautical comments on the proposal’s effect on aviation activity. (FAA Order 7400.2)​

The changes are expected to make the Class B airspace area fully support the procedures for the current operations. The chart depicting the planned Philadelphia Class B Airspace area design is included to assist in the preparation of comments prior to the meeting.​
Dates/times/locations are subject to change due to weather or other considerations. Please check this website for information on any changes.

DATES: February 15, 2011 February 16, 2011
TIMES: 4:00 PM and 7:00 PM 4:00 PM and 7:00 PM
PLACES: New Castle Airport New Garden Airport
151 North Dupont Highway 1235 Newark Road
New Castle, DE 19720 Toughkenamon, PA 19374 ​

DATES: February 17, 2011 February 22, 2011
TIMES: 4:00 PM and 7:00 PM 4:00 PM and 7:00 PM
PLACES: Wings Field Terminal Building Wings Field Terminal Building
1501 Narcissa Road 1501 Narcissa Road
Blue Bell, PA 19422 Blue Bell, PA 19422 ​

DATES: February 23, 2011
TIMES: 4:00 PM and 7:00 PM
PLACES: Flying W Airport
60 Fostertown Road
Medford, NJ 08055 ​


DATES: February 24, 2011
TIMES: 4:00 PM and 7:00 PM
PLACES: Freefall Adventures Skydive
300 Dahlia Avenue
Williamstown, NJ 08094 ​



AGENDA​

· Sign In
· Presentation of Meeting Procedures
· Informal Presentation of the planned Class B Airspace area Modification
· Public Presentations and Discussions
· Closing Comments ​


FAA presentations will be conducted at 4:00 and again at 7:00. Each presentation will be the same, so attendees may arrive at any time of their convenience, and will not need to remain until the end. ​

Following each presentation will be time for questions and presentations by attendees. ​

Written comments may be submitted at any time during the meeting. ​


SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION ​

MEETING PROCEDURES: ​

a. This meeting will be open to all persons on a space-available basis. There will be no admission fee or other charge to attend and participate.​

b. This meeting will be informal in nature and will be conducted by one or more designated representatives of the FAA Eastern Service Area. Each participant will be given an opportunity to make a presentation, although a time limit may be imposed. Each person wishing to make a presentation will be asked to sign in so those time frames can be established. This meeting will not be adjourned until everyone on the list has had an opportunity to address the panel. This meeting may be adjourned at any time if all persons present have had an opportunity to speak. ​

c. Position papers or other handout materials relating to the substance of the meeting may be accepted. Participants submitting handout materials should present an original and two copies to the presiding officer. There should be an adequate number of copies for distribution to all participants.​

d. This meeting will not be formally recorded. However, a summary of the comments made at the meeting will be filed in the docket. ​


COMMENT PERIOD: ​

Comments must be received on or before March 26, 2011. Comments on the plan, in triplicate, should be sent to: ​

Mark Ward, Manager, Operations Support Group,
Eastern Service Area, Air Traffic Organization,
Federal Aviation Administration
P.O. Box 20636
Atlanta, Georgia 30320 ​

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: ​

Dennis Sweeney, Traffic Management Officer
Philadelphia ATCT/TRACON
15 Hog Island Road
Philadelphia, PA 19153
Telephone: (215) 492–4100 x287​

Information gathered through this meeting will assist the FAA in the drafting of a Notice of Proposed Rule-Making (NPRM). The public will be afforded the opportunity to comment on any NPRM published on this matter.​
 
Are any POAers planning to go to one of these meetings? If so, can you post your observations here?
 
I am planning to try to attend either this Thursday or next Tuesday. You can dowload the PDF at the top of the first post which indicates the changes on a chart. I'm sure others in the area will attend, and we can post a summary afterwards.
 
wsuffa said:
24 miles and lower shelfs? What a mess.
Click to expand...

Yup you said it.

Erice said:
Are any POAers planning to go to one of these meetings? If so, can you post your observations here?
Click to expand...

I'll be at one of the meetings at Wings in a dual capacity as a pilot and elected township official. Folks already complain about noise at Wings forcing transiting aircraft down and additional 500' won't be good for the airport and the others in the community.
 
AdamZ said:
I'll be at one of the meetings at Wings in a dual capacity as a pilot and elected township official. Folks already complain about noise at Wings forcing transiting aircraft down and additional 500' won't be good for the airport and the others in the community.
Click to expand...

Do Bravo airspace redesigns ever breach the public consciousness over this issue? It isn't only the aircraft inbound to Wings, after all. Lowering the B shelf also means that the jets coming in to PHL can be brought 500ft lower, right?
 
chucky said:
Do Bravo airspace redesigns ever breach the public consciousness over this issue? It isn't only the aircraft inbound to Wings, after all. Lowering the B shelf also means that the jets coming in to PHL can be brought 500ft lower, right?
Click to expand...


Yup exactly thats why I said aircraft transiting the area. Aircraft inboud to Wings are usually going to be below that ceiling anyway but the ceiling will force them lower further out and keep them lower for a longer distance upon leaving wings.

As you said however the larger aircraft into PHL and ILG would likely be lower as well. There are many folks in our area who think that any plane not leaving contrails is inbound or outbound for Wings. NJRB Willow Grove NXX is very close by and folks would often call wings to complain about the lowflying A10s or blackhawks so the lower shelf will just create more confusion.
 
I went to the Wilmington meeting. It sounds like the reason is to keep the traffic inside the Bravo airspace. Once cleared through the bravo the commercial traffic has to exit and return, along the Jersey side or the current approaches take them below the current floor of the airspace, again exiting and returning. I haven't went back online to go through the slide show but it is available for preview prior to attending.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/events/EA/EA17/2010/EA1735356/PHL_IAM_presentation_with_notes.pdf
 
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Well that kinda sucks. Didn't this surface a few years ago?
 
Anthony said:
Well that kinda sucks. Didn't this surface a few years ago?
Click to expand...

Yep, it did. As part of their process it seems there was an initial airspace drawing/proposal to get the ball rolling. It was different from the updated version they presented yesterday at the meeting. The entire process was explained and reasoning with plenty of "tell us what we don't know" requests for comments and input.

I think you can find the "ad hoc" initial airspace diagram in the presentation.
 
Seems like the guys who were recently in the Chicago area looking over airspace have moved east to Philly! Sorry guys. The process here was that they had a nice open meeting, took lots of comments, went away for a few months and then came back with the proposal that looked exactly like what they originally proposed. Hopefully you guys will have better luck.
 
I often get cleared through the Bravo, but sometimes the controllers are just either too busy or in a foul mood or both and I just go around, as I am thankfully located just outside the old and newly proposed Bravo.

I find the NYC controllers much more accomodating. Go figure.
 
The proposed changes will pose a problem for some VFR arrivals into Wings (KLOM). The "standard" method taught by the Wings instructors for arrivals from the North when 24 is active involves overflying the field at 2500 MSL then maneuvering over the quarry for the "45 entry". Turbine pattern altitude is 2000 MSL, which is why overflying at 2500 is prudent. The proposed 2000 shelf just south of LOM will require changes to that method of VFR pattern entry.

I wonder if they can make the floor of that ring 2500 instead of 2000.
 
my guess is that the pattern entry will no longer be used. A bigger affect will be if it influences the 2000 foot turbine pattern, as that will affect the noise abatement policy as mentioned by AdamZ above.
 
Rob Schaffer said:
my guess is that the pattern entry will no longer be used. A bigger affect will be if it influences the 2000 foot turbine pattern, as that will affect the noise abatement policy as mentioned by AdamZ above.
Click to expand...

Certainly does make the standard left-hand pattern altitude (1500'??) for 24 REAL tight. Can't be more than 1 nm south to the 2000' floor of the Bravo. It's interesting that they made a "cut-out" for Cross Keys 17N but not Wings.

Overall, makes life tougher (particularly for my semi-routine flights to Millville) but not impossible.

Gary
 
Good point. Adjusting our pattern entry is no big deal. Bringing the "noisy" aircraft lower and closer to the residents is a bigger issue.
 
jpsmall said:
Good point. Adjusting our pattern entry is no big deal. Bringing the "noisy" aircraft lower and closer to the residents is a bigger issue.
Click to expand...

Well it will be a big deal when the turbines and jets have their pattern lowered by 500' Not that a Cherokee can't mix it up with King Airs and Citations but its going to be a very tight pattern for the bigger metal plus as I have said and you stated the more aircraft that are lower the worse it is for the community and the worse that makes it for the Airport and pilots because when someone complains about noise its going to be the Airport that is teh scape goat not the FAA.
 
All Class Bs nationwide are under review. I just finished being part of the AdHoc committee working on the LAS ClassB. It is now in local review and the next step wil be the public meetings once the FAA design change request is finalized.

SLC and SEA just finished the AdHoc phase also. PHX changed last year as did CHI (ORD). Why ORD needs 4000MSL 35 miles east I'll never understand.

The new gps derived arrival routing is driving the Class B expansions.
 
Any reports from the meetings at Wings?

Is right traffic on 24 a possibility?

I see in the newspaper today that Willow Grove NAS (and its Class D) will be closing this year. That can only help the situation I think.
 
I am going to the 4pm meeting tomorrow. AdamZ went on Thursday and Had some good points to discuss.

I don't think right traffic will happen for 24 yet, as the GA pattern is still under the shelf but close. Putting right traffic for 24 would put more of us over the more residential side vs the park/farm/horses.

You are right about Willow Grove,.. .it's a shame it is being lost and not re-used in some aviation way, but that will open up that eastern side for some space to move around / enter the pattern easier from the east / northeast. Plus, that would open up the flight to PNE more directly again without having to fly up and around Peace Valley Park / Doyelstown airport.
 
The meeting was poorly attended at 4pm,... only 5 pilots besides the two tower controllers and two guys there giving the presentation. I hope the other meeting in the evening and those last week were better. No local residents were in attendence.

They presented the reasoning for the expansion and change and have some valid points for the approaches to PHL RY 27, with planes currently entering the Bravo, and leaving while on downwind, re-entering on Base leg, and sometimes even dropping down out of the bottom prematurely in the outer rings.

MCA had a handout prepared with some key points regarding Noise Abatement, Pattern Entry's and TPAs.

I mentioned about IR Students training would no longer be able to practice the approach back into wings GPS 6 with the 2000 shelf, as we would be in and out of the Bravo on that approach (if practicing approaches VFR and not on an IFR Flight Plan). Similar for impacts to Brandiwine. They said they were not aware of that impact till the meeting on Thursday.

They had a nice graphic indicating all the VFR traffic SFC-7000, outside the Bravo. PNE was pretty bold, but Wings was indicating even more VFR traffic than PNE, yet they receive the cutout in the bravo shelf. They are discussing making that shelf cutout extend over to the west of Wings field. :fcross:

Perkiomen was mentioned for skydiving, but so far, no one from Perkiomen or the skydiving school (formerly those at Kutztown before it closed) have attended the meetings, it has only been made known by other local pilots. :dunno:

They seem open to the comments, but the CRITICAL thing we all need to do is fill out the comment sheet and send it to them via FAX / EMAIL / or Mail. Without those being sent in,... it is not going to be quantified or heard as well. They have mental notes from the meetings, but we can share the details / impacts / etc to them to help get things corrected for the benefit of everyone.

They are most concerned with the arrivals to 27, leaving the bravo, and oddly enough, have not mirrored the shelf altitudes for arrivals on ry 9.

Please go online and download the slide presentation with notes, and you can see the graphics and notes they basically read thru. Please email them your comments by March 28th.

PDF Of PRESENTATION ADDED BELOW
 

Attachments

  • PHL_IAM_presentation_with_notes.pdf
    9.6 MB · Views: 9
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Rob gives a good summary. Really what the FAA rep ( a former controller) hammered on was the propensity ( according the the FAA) for planes landing on 27L to exit the Bravo when flying the pattern (IMHO) the exit was more prevalent here than anywhere else but still was not horrible. They showed graphics of the flight paths. The primary exit was on the down wind to base section of the pattern. They also indicated that planes were exiting and reentering the Bravo while on the ILS for 9L and 9R and decending down the glide path (popping out and back into the layers of the wedding cake) They did admit that it was only for a matter of perhaps just a few seconds that they were out of the bravo.

They also showed some planes outside the bravo on certain arrivals, really a non issue IMHO.

The FAA said they start with a plan that will eliminate all their problems and then do "give backs" from there. They were real big on telling us that they have a responsibilty to keep the big boys away from the VFR flivvers. They also pointed out how few planes that were VFR ever entered the bravo and suggested it therefore won't be such a big issue. Several of us pointed out that its not by pilot choice and that the Philly ATC often times just won't let them in.

I think the plan is frought with problems such as

1) Killing the skydive ops at Perkiomen Valley airport and thus the airport

2) Squeezing VFR aircraft between the new Bravo and Maguire AFBs A220. Yea its just an alert area but I don't like to mix it up with F16s

3) Forcing Aircraft lower over the populated suburbs which at the very least creates a noise issue that will be a nightmare for airports and local govt's

I pointed out that Phllly was likley going to reconfigure their runways and add one in the near future and suggested that an airspace redesigne without taking that into consideration would be foolish. They responded well were just tasked with solving THIS problem. Wouldn't you know it PHL just announced the new runway config on Thursday last.

I also pointed out that considering that about 95% of their stated problem is occuring east and west of the airport why make the rest of the airspace suffer. I suggested adding "bowtie" additions to the Bravo off the departure ends of 9 and 24 rather than adding another ring and lowering the floors of the existing rings where they say there is NO problem.

I further suggested that the "bowties" be made " active" during the push hours at PHL only sort of the way they make certain restricted Areas hot and cold at different times. The presenter got VERY excited when I suggested this and begged me to write his boss to whom he has made this very suggestion. Who knows he could be blowing contrails up my rear but Rob is right those comment forms need to be submitted.
 
Adam,
Not to add any more work to your day but ... Do you think it would make sense for you to draw up your proposed bow tie scheme and have a bunch of area pilots sign on?

I'm ashamed to admit that I missed these sessions at Wings. I intended to go but got side tracked.

Dave
 
Thanks to everyone for highlighting this and providing feedback. I too intended to go to one of the meetings, but was unable. The links to the forms is great, thanks. Let's mobilize on this, no need to change the airspace dimensions in areas where there's not a current problem. It sounds like most of the issue is the Jersey side.
 
David said:
Adam,
Not to add any more work to your day but ... Do you think it would make sense for you to draw up your proposed bow tie scheme and have a bunch of area pilots sign on?

I'm ashamed to admit that I missed these sessions at Wings. I intended to go but got side tracked.

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave I'll see what I can put together. Frankly I think that it would have more impact if the FAA received numerous individual responses but I'd be glad to share my comments and any drawings with you or any other pilot.

jpsmall said:
Thanks to everyone for highlighting this and providing feedback. I too intended to go to one of the meetings, but was unable. The links to the forms is great, thanks. Let's mobilize on this, no need to change the airspace dimensions in areas where there's not a current problem. It sounds like most of the issue is the Jersey side.
Click to expand...

yes they stated the biggest issue is left pattern for 27L the second is landing 6R and 6L and too boot the issue is not all day long.
 
Thanks to Rob and Adam for the updates from the meetings.

My comments to the FAA are on their way . . .

It seems like there may be a realistic shot at extending the PNE cutout over to Wings.

Let's hope for the best.
 
ONE WEEK LEFT -- COMMENTS DUE BY MARCH 26th. Please submit / email your thoughts to the committee.

Thanks! :thumbsup:
 
The FAA has formally proposed the changes to the Philly Class B. See attachment. The last page has the diagram of the new Class B.

Not surprisingly, the requests for some more room at Wings Field were ignored.

Not clear to me when the changes will actually become effective.
 

Attachments

  • 2012-18644.pdf
    280 KB · Views: 42
TedR3 said:
The FAA has formally proposed the changes to the Philly Class B. See attachment. The last page has the diagram of the new Class B.

Not surprisingly, the requests for some more room at Wings Field were ignored.

Not clear to me when the changes will actually become effective.
Click to expand...

The NPRM was published in July for a 90 day public comment period that expires 1 Oct. then the FAA has to review all of the public comments and address them in another public document.

I would expect the airspace change to be enacted during an early 2013 chart update cycle.

We've been waiting for the new LAS Class B to be released to NPRM status this fall.
 
TedR3 said:
Not surprisingly, the requests for some more room at Wings Field were ignored.
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Not ignored, they discussed them in the NPRM, but decided against them.

But it is clear, the propsed needs of ATC using their existing idea of traffic routing appears to ALWAYS trump long time, existing users of the airspace.

Someday the feds will come into the twentieth century and figure out how to include images (or at least a reference to them) in the FR.
 
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flyingron said:
Not ignored, they discussed them in the NPRM, but decided against them.

But it is clear, the propsed needs of ATC using their existing idea of traffic routing appears to ALWAYS trump long time, existing users of the airspace.

Someday the feds will come into the twentieth century and figure out how to include images (or at least a reference to them) in the FR.
Click to expand...

The PHL Class B doesn't currently contain the traffic during peak times and Jet traffic routinely exit the class B on downwind, base and part of final. The point is that the high performance traffic is already using the airspace and the mixing of high performance traffic with GA type traffic is an ongoing hazard. PHL had to request a deviation to permit them to put information on the ATIS pointing out where the jet traffic could expect to exit and re-enter the Bravo in lieu of ATC transmitting to each aircraft when they exit and re-enter. Traffic also has to be slowed down so that it doesn't exceed the 200 Kt limit when under the Bravo which slows the process down. If you assume that with the current Bravo that if you are outside of the Bravo, you won't be mixing it up with the Jets, it is a bad assumption. With the new design, this issue will be resolved and is the main reason for the redesign.
 
You got your 24nm bowties and the rest remains at 20nm.
 
John Collins said:
The PHL Class B doesn't currently contain the traffic during peak times and Jet traffic routinely exit the class B on downwind, base and part of final. The point is that the high performance traffic is already using the airspace and the mixing of high performance traffic with GA type traffic is an ongoing hazard. PHL had to request a deviation to permit them to put information on the ATIS pointing out where the jet traffic could expect to exit and re-enter the Bravo in lieu of ATC transmitting to each aircraft when they exit and re-enter. Traffic also has to be slowed down so that it doesn't exceed the 200 Kt limit when under the Bravo which slows the process down. If you assume that with the current Bravo that if you are outside of the Bravo, you won't be mixing it up with the Jets, it is a bad assumption. With the new design, this issue will be resolved and is the main reason for the redesign.
Click to expand...

Same problem with the LAS Rwy25L approach, the left downwind cuts the corner and descends below Class B, so they want to change that, and a few other areas, plus lower the floors in a few areas plus raise the ceiling from 9,000MSL to 10, 000MSL.
 
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