Procedure Turn Question

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by azpilot, Oct 19, 2022.

  1. John Collins

    John Collins En-Route

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    I agree with your response, but point out that the PT, although depicted after HALLB (9.9 IWA DME), it is not relevant to where the PT is conducted, that is the PT may be conducted inside or outside of HALLB as long as the aircraft remains within 10 NM of SNOWL as shown in the profile view. The fact that the PT is shown after HALLB is due to the limitation on the space needed to chart the PT.
     
  2. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sometimes they do have to depict things not to the usual scale so to speak, because of Chart clutter. But that doesn't seem to be the case here with the location of the Barb. It's about 6.5 miles from SNOWL. I looked at a number of other Charts and 6.5 miles is typical.

    I would change your your post to read"...I agree with your response, but point out that the Barb, although depicted after HALLB (9.9 IWA DME), is not relevant to where the Course Reversal is begun if using the Barb method of PT, that is, it may be conducted inside or outside of HALLB as long as the aircraft remains within 10 NM of SNOWL as shown in the profile view. The fact that the Barb is shown after HALLB is due to the limitation on the space needed to chart the PT..."

    There is no requirement to fly the Barb.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2022
  3. John Collins

    John Collins En-Route

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    I don't need to change my post. It said what I meant it to say.
     
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  4. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yup. When I got my instrument training in a 172 in 1992, I was taught to fly two minutes outbound from the PT fix and then fly one minute out on the 45 before making the 180 to the intercept heading. At 172 speeds, that seemed to allow ample margin to stay within the ten-mile limit.

    Standard-procedure-turn.jpg

    As has been pointed out, other styles of course reversal are permitted, but I never felt the need to reinvent the wheel, especially for a checkride.

    [Edited to correct the date.]
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2022
  5. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Would you not even consider doing a Racetrack type of Procedure Turn if you arrived at GEP from the West, like on V78? You could get it done with 2 turns instead of 5.
     
  6. WDD

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    That’s exactly what I was taught only 12 months ago. If it works-it works.
     
  7. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I haven't encountered that situation, but that sounds like a good reason to do as you suggest.
     
  8. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Definitely.
     
  9. guest user

    guest user Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks, but I addressed that. Actually in the first sentence of what you quoted.

    So yeah, PT protected area begins at SNOWL outbound and extends for 10mi from that point.
     
  10. aterpster

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    I am arriving from the west over RELAE for the procedure turn. When can I descend to 13,100?
    00504iyly19.jpg
     
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  11. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I didn’t mean you should literally change it. I meant it’s how I would have said it.
     
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You know, I really like that chart as a learning tool.
     
  13. luvflyin

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    At QUIRT. Why do you ask?
     
  14. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    How so? The answer to the question seems so obvious to me to be QUIRT that now I’m wondering if I’m missing something.
     
  15. Walboy

    Walboy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you overshoot QUIRT, the MSA is only 12,700. So you would need to be on the localizer or to the west of it.
     
  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The visual complexity of the chart. Due to surrounding terrain, there's lots of stuff happening in a very small area. It requires degree of attention you don't need with most so increased chart reading skills.
     
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  17. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    We are dealing with ground-based navaids, not GPS turn anticipation. You will go past QUIRT while turning outbound. Remember that the PT has protected airspace on the non-barb side too.

    upload_2022-10-23_10-18-4.png
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2022
  18. Walboy

    Walboy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Agreed, I should have said "when" instead of "if"

    Attention to detail.
     
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  19. aterpster

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    My question is about the underlined 14,100. That means the procedure turn entry zone has a floor of 14,100. You cannot descend below 14,100 until not only past QUIRT, but proceeding outbound. (AIM 5-4-9 a. 2.)
     
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  20. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My guess would be that you can begin the descent when you are established outbound in the procedure turn.

    When I was training for the instrument rating, my instructor advised me to "Never descend without course guidance!"
     
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  21. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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  22. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Ah. Here’s Jepps chart for a different view. Seems maybe a little easier read. One thing has me scratching my head though. Wonder why they put the DME from DNW for TRIPS on there.

    upload_2022-10-23_7-29-34.png
     
  23. aterpster

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    I think it is you stating, "Of course. Like any route with a minimum altitude.'

    The procedure turn is not a route. If the entry and maneuvering are the same altitude, then you can begin descent as soon as QUIRT is passed; i.e., at the start of the outbound turn. In this case, though, 14,100 is the minimum altitude until the outbound turn is completed.
     
  24. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Here it is. I’m not so sure that says you must be on the outbound course before descending.
    2. Descent to the procedure turn (PT) completion altitude from the PT fix altitude (when one has been published or assigned by ATC) must not begin
    until crossing over the PT fix or abeam and proceeding outbound. Some procedures contain a note in the chart profile view that says “Maintain
    (altitude) or above until established outbound for procedure turn” (See FIG 5−4−16). Newer procedures will simply depict an “at or above” altitude at the
    PT fix without a chart note (See FIG 5−4−17). Both are there to ensure required obstacle clearance is provided in the procedure turn entry zone (See
    FIG 5−4−18). Absence of a chart note or specified minimum altitude adjacent to the PT fix is an indication that descent to the procedure turn altitude can commence immediately upon crossing over the PT fix, regardless of the direction of flight. This is because the minimum altitudes in the PT entry zone and the PT maneuvering zone are the same.
     
  25. aterpster

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    Over-applying the TRIPS 8260.2 without subsequent QC.
     
  26. aterpster

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    I didn't say on the outbound course. I said, "outbound."
     
  27. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Of course if the entry and the maneuvering are all at the same altitude, you can stay at the altitude (they are underlined too).

    Well yeah, I guess technically it's a segment, not a specific course. But the principle is the same and I'm not sure how the distinction in this case is an aid to understanding.
     
  28. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes you did. My jump to conclusion that you meant on outbound course. My bad.
    So now the question is, when are you ‘outbound?’ When you’ve begun the turn? Passed through a heading that equals the outbound course? Something else?
     
  29. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Maybe they oughta just do away with PT's and replace them with HILPT's. @RussR , would any HILPT template be contained within a PT template? Like maybe it wouldn't need to much calculation and Flight Check. It would have already been done.
     
  30. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There's the question. I go with the "established." While ICAO has some specifics on this, the FAA does not. The best we get from the FAA is, "To be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc." Pretty much the same as the plain English definition. For me it means, I have completed enough of the turn that I am generally heading in the correct northerly direction and am on the PT side of the fix.

    Not that there's any rush to get down. Even on this approach, we have 20 miles to lose 1,000'
     
  31. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Where is that? AIM? Instrument Procedures/Flying Handbook? Page and/or paragraphs if you have them. "To be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc."
     
  32. aterpster

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    The mountains in this area are significant. I fly the PT as depicted on the Jeppesen chart. My technique would be to not leave 14,100 until turning outbound heading 322 degrees.
     
  33. luvflyin

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    That sounds like a good idea. Even more, seeing as how there is only 1000 feet to lose, as @midlifeflyer pointed out, waiting until turning to get established Localizer inbound would offer even more peace of mind.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2022
  34. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sorry. Pilot/Controller Glossary (I think they recently added altitude).
    upload_2022-10-23_15-39-31.png
     
  35. aterpster

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    Yes, indeed.
     
  36. Palmpilot

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    "Outbound course" was me. I knew it might be more restrictive than required, but I was playing it safe by applying what my CFII taught.
     
  37. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

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    This coming Wednesday (10/26) afternoon. My CFII has referred many IR candidates to this DPE. He’s giving me lots of good pointers
     
  38. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I’d buy the house a round to be able to be in the back seat videoing the DPE saying, now do the ILS Approach, and the applicant saying ‘no’ I’m gonna do the RNAV Approach instead.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2022
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  39. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It was from post #’s 64, 66 and 68. That being said, doing what your CFII taught can be a good thing. Saying what your CFI taught is the ‘regulation’ is another thing. Not saying that’s what your CFII is doing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2022
  40. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think ya got it nailed. Go forth and be a PIC.
     
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